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Hi I am new to forums of any discription! I have two Apricot Standard Girls whom I adore. I have bred from my oldest girl twice now having never done it before. Recently one of the bitches from last years litter was diagnosed with PDA (heart problem) but was successfully operated on and should lead a normal active life. My question to all of you on this forum is should I refrain from breeding from the Dam or is this likely to be a one off? Both the Dam + Sire are from lines with NO previous Heart conditions and they are both from Totally different lines too!!
 

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From a site on PDA:

PDA is genetically determined in almost every case, and this fact impacts the value of purebred dogs used for breeding. PDA is common in the miniature poodle, collie, Maltese, Shetland sheepdog, German shepherd dog, cocker spaniel, Pomeranian, and Labrador retriever. Female dogs are predisposed.

I would say that I would remove the dam from your breeding program. If you keep her in a breeding program I would think you would be ethically responsible for testing all future offspring and paying for surgery on any that were affected. This could be costly.
 

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"Both the Dam + Sire are from lines with NO previous Heart conditions "
I don't want so sound like a [email protected]#, but you need to re-frame your thinking.
No publicly known would be a better phrase.
Unless you had access to the vet heart testing on ALL the pups produced from ALL the dogs in say, the prior 3 generations, you have no real idea.
My guess is there could be a few, especially with pet owners, who never reported or had the pup dignosed. We could be talking about hundreds of dogs. Many of the apricot/reds do go back to mini's, so as Carol said- it is not wise to continue breeding, unless you are doing a research project.
 

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Right. Based on my reading of PDA, it often goes undetected. So there may have been heart issues that you just didn't know about.
 

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Thank you for your thoughts on PDA but how can one determine whether PDA is genetic from either the Dam or the Sire? I could refrain from having further litters from my Dam only to find out the defect is from the Sire! I do not own the Sire so I can not make the owner of him stop using him as a stud! Any comments please.
 

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Thank you for your thoughts on PDA but how can one determine whether PDA is genetic from either the Dam or the Sire? I could refrain from having further litters from my Dam only to find out the defect is from the Sire! I do not own the Sire so I can not make the owner of him stop using him as a stud! Any comments please.
Findings suggest that apparently the PDA is caused by a genetic defect in the structure of the ductus arteriosus that is similar or identical to that in the Poodle. The relatives of dogs with PDA, particularly parents, offspring, and siblings, should be screened for evidence of PDA. Dogs with PDA should not be used for breeding, regardless of breed.


There is currently no genetic test for PDA. Rather than being caused by a specific gene, PDA may have more to do with inherited physical structure. Have you had your bitch tested for PDA? You said that she has been bred twice. Have you tested offspring from previous litters where a different stud may have been used?

With breeding, you never want to throw the baby out with the bath water but, is this bitch a really a fabulous example of the breed? Is she a conformation Champion? Does she have high level performance titles? She has already been bred twice. Given this current health concern, why would it be so important to breed her again? What special things does she bring to the gene pool that simply should not be lost to the Poodle breed?

Edited to add.... Has the stud dog owner been apprised of the fact that her dog produced PDA? Is she blowing you off? You can list your affected puppy on www.poodlehealthregistry.com and anyone searching there will see that the stud dog was the parent of a PDA affected dog.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The Apricot gene pool is a very small pool as it is and if you go back far enough they are all related to each other some where! My girl is NOT a champion although she has numerous champions in her 5 generation pedigree as has the Sire. I have looked on the poodle health registry at both the Dam's and Sire's pedigree's and as far as I can tell there isnt any heart problems on either side. Surely any health problem can crop up as a one off? I have taken great care in both my Dam and finding a Sire that wasnt related to her bloodlines to try and widen the Apricot gene pool. I am just wondering if PDA can crop up out of the blue? If this can happen my Dam my never produce another puppy with this condition. Your thoughts please.
 

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You have come to the crossroads many breeders arrive at. It can be heartwrenching do make the decision not to breed a special dog or even quit with a whole line. Both Carol and I have been there, and I know for both of us, a lot of time and our dreams went up in smoke with the decision.
The thing to do now is...research and hard detective work. Call the owners/breeders of as many dogs close in the pedigree you can. It can be done, it takes a whole lot of time and work.
You have 2 litters on the ground, contact all the owners and request all pups be screened at the vet for the problem.
PHR is only a tiny tool in the information that you need to look at. As many know, it contains only those dogs who's owners went to the time and effort to register. There are still many many breeders who are not forthcoming about health issues they have produced.
One other thing to ponder... just wait! There is no need to be in a hurry to either breed or rebreed a bitch.
Time always helps if you are concerned about a possible health issue cropping up- the longer you wait, the better the percentage of it not rearing it's ugly head.
Carole
 

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I am just wondering if PDA can crop up out of the blue? If this can happen my Dam my never produce another puppy with this condition. Your thoughts please.
From another site on PDA....

PDA is considered a heritable disease that can be passed to puppies.

I think all of the evidence points to the fact that PDA is hereditary and that it does not just crop up out of the blue. Have you notified all of your puppy buyers about this. They should go have their Poodles tested to see if they have heart abnormalities as well. It will be interesting to see what you find out. Did you use the same sire with both litters?

This is the major bummer downside to being a breeder. I had to spay a CH bitch who had a CDX and who was working on her Utility title after she bloated. I spayed her daughter who was in full show coat too. I know about having to swallow this bitter pill.

With your two litters, did you keep a puppy to go forward with? If so, I would spay the dam, test all of her offspring (at your expense) and then take a wait and see approach with the daughter.

BTW... can I see a pedigree for the affected puppy?
 

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I understand that you see NO previous heart conditions in the pedigree but I just hope that you see this situation as being absolutely critical that you DO report it so that you may be able to prevent such things in the future and I completely agree with all the wonderful comments of help, suggestions and support everyone has tried to offer here. I would personally wait, heavily do some reasearch and test those puppies. You should also be in close contact with the owner of the sire and if they are not willing to work with you in reporting/finding the cause then I would absolutely not breed your bitch again and would advise all intact offspring altered. It's just not worth it.
I do hope that you would be willing to share a pedigree of course like the others. There are many good respected people on this site that could likely have or run into your lines. I know that anytime you put yourself in the spotlight you open yourself to a very vulnerable situation, but, I will say that it is better to have a reputation of being upfront and honest when it comes to health than to be the opposite. Someone who cares about what they are offering this breed would be willing to sacrifice at any time all they have invested. Anyone who wouldn't in my opinion has no business involved in breeding them. I hope you find the right route to take, and that you carefully consider your options.
 

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This is quite an OLD topic. I am very interested to keep it going if there is anything anyone would care to add. My now 6 yr old miniature poodle was diagnosed with rPDA February of last year by my Cardio Vet in Sarasota and then further tests in from a Cardiologist in Tampa. His pedigree is entirely Champions except for one and himself. Both parents, grandparents, etc. down the lines, four columns... all Champions except for one at the bottom column.
I wanted to say after Remy was Dx'ed, I called his breeder that I bought him from and she hardly said a word. "Call me with updates after Tampa." I never did. Blue Pearl has Pet Hospitals Across the country. The Dr. who specializes in Cardio did further testing and bloodwork confirmed Remy's reversed PDA. We had his blood checked last week and his blood is the same (25%) which is okay, thank goodness it has not thickened and his heart sounded good. We will keep on checking him. He is on Medication. Sildenafil and Famotidine.
If there is anything else that can give me at least 6 more years with this amazing poodle of mine, who would have been so great at Agility, I would be eternally grateful. -Lindsay
 
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