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I am so enjoying this forum! I'm learning a lot from all the posts, and the knowledgeable folks here. I am actively searching for my "dream" spoo, smaller female, phantom color, as a pet only. I am not interested in showing. I spent time in the ring with my horses and now prefer trail riding with hubby and friends. Our dogs travel with us when we camp and they are our "fids." So, please be patient with me as I ask lots of questions and inquire about breeders.

Anyone have knowledge of these folks? http://www.htpoodles.com/index.html

Again, as in another thread, the puppies are so adorable! It's hard to get past those pretty faces and dig into the "meat" of the operation. LOL!
 

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Took a very quick look at the website.

1) Looks like they have a lot of dogs/ puppies. They mention a "State of the art" kennel facility and that they are regularly inspected, which suggests they are a commercial breeder.

2) I don't see any mention of common poodle health problems/ health testing anywhere on the website.

3) They are breeding all the "hot" colours of poodles. Parti, phantom, reds...

It all depends on what you are comfortable with and looking for. I personally wouldn't even bother to contact them for more information, but that's me :)
 

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Have you looked at these people? Did a quick search for phantom poodles, and they came up. I know NOTHING about them so do your research, but at a glance they seem to show in UKC and do health testing, both of which are positive signs. :) Plus they may not be that far from you?

http://www.wpspoodles.com/index.htm
 

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WOW they have alot of dogs!!! I counted 17 puppies for sale right now! They have WAY too many breeding dogs, and most of them look like they are being bred only for color. It looks like alot of them would Not meet the breed standard. No pedigrees, no health tests mentioned, no birthdays, etc. I would personally stay Far Far away from this breeder.
 

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Phantom is a disqualifying fault in AKC. Historically, when these puppies popped up in a well bred litter, they were highly discounted or available for the cost of their spay/neuter surgery. The fact that people now buy them for $$$ from obviously bad breeders makes my head go :wacko:

Take a look at the breeding section of this board to educate yourself about what to look for in a breeder.

Red Flags?

Where are the registered names?
Does this breeder do anything with her dogs other than fill uteruses?
Where is the testing?
Learn the breed Standard. Do these dogs conform?
 

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Phantom is a disqualifying fault in AKC. Historically, when these puppies popped up in a well bred litter, they were highly discounted or available for the cost of their spay/neuter surgery. The fact that people now buy them for $$$ from obviously bad breeders makes my head go :wacko:
Isn't this also true for all non solids? And is there really a specific reason for it, or just that some people in history decided that poodles should be solid only and anything else is a disqualifying fault? I'm on the fence about non solids and think to some extent it's a shame that they are now in the hands of primarily questionable breeders.
 

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Isn't this also true for all non solids? And is there really a specific reason for it, or just that some people in history decided that poodles should be solid only and anything else is a disqualifying fault? I'm on the fence about non solids and think to some extent it's a shame that they are now in the hands of primarily questionable breeders.

Breeds have Standards. The standard is the blue print breeders use for maintaining the overall look, movement and in some cases temperament in a breed.

People think color is not a big deal and that any and all colors should now be OK in poodles. Well what about coats. How do you feel about flat coated poodles? Ever heard of Bluebells? These tend to pop up in Mini litters. They are born a gun-metal gray all over and they have flat, non-curly coats? Should we start showing these in UKC as well? Or is there something about the curly coat that defines "Poodle".

What about structure? If we are not going to follow the standard, why not breed Poodles that are short on leg, long in body and short of neck? Why not breed prick ear poodles? Or poodles with tails that hang down saber style? If we did not follow the standard, at some point our breed would lose the essence of Poodle.
 

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Does color play that much into structure of the dog? If a parti or any color can occur naturally does that make the dog unnatural by "breed" standard? I know why we have standards and I agree with you but I also don't. I think partis should be allowed because they occur often in litters. Even in some of the biggest most well known lines you get mismarks which are not allowed in AKC showing and it's just a tiny spot of white on a colored dog. How does that change it's conformation?
 

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Breeds have Standards. The standard is the blue print breeders use for maintaining the overall look, movement and in some cases temperament in a breed.
Standards are important, but I don't think they are the be all and end all of a breed. Some breeds are bred to their current standard and now can't even birth naturally! Others like GSD's have a structure that is prone to major hip problems, yet they would be considered to standard. So standards are important and are what make a breed a breed, yet I think they should also be reevaluated periodically to ensure that what made sense in the past continues to make sense today.

I see your point, as to where is the line drawn? And what makes a poodle a poodle? But I look back at the history of the poodle and I see partis and other not to standard coats documented in art and photos. It just makes me wonder why parti poodles were accepted at one point and are not now. And if it would really weaken the breed to expand the standard to accept at least some of the currently unacceptable coats (with clear guidelines of course). As I say, I haven't made up my mind on it. :)
 

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Does color play that much into structure of the dog? If a parti or any color can occur naturally does that make the dog unnatural by "breed" standard? I know why we have standards and I agree with you but I also don't. I think partis should be allowed because they occur often in litters. Even in some of the biggest most well known lines you get mismarks which are not allowed in AKC showing and it's just a tiny spot of white on a colored dog. How does that change it's conformation?
Parti coloring often visually alters the outline of a dog making the topline look dippy or the neck look short. It can also make the movement look unbalanced.

I also think that the Parti coloring detracts from the regal look of a Poodle (especially a standard). Parti coloring makes a Poodle look clownish and not dignified or elegant.

From the standard:
That of a very active, intelligent and elegant-appearing dog, squarely built, well proportioned, moving soundly and carrying himself proudly. Properly clipped in the traditional fashion and carefully groomed, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself.
 

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Okay I can understand your point there but what about the poor mismark puppies that are outstanding but have a little white on the chest or toes? I don't think that really should have to be dyed to show and it cannot possibly take away from the look of the dog unless it's the entire chest. It reminds me of the ridgeback not being a true ridgeback without the ridge.
 

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Where do the phantoms come from? I've seen old pictures of parti colored dogs, but I've never seen a phantom until recently. Are they even purebred?
 

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Okay I can understand your point there but what about the poor mismark puppies that are outstanding but have a little white on the chest or toes? I don't think that really should have to be dyed to show and it cannot possibly take away from the look of the dog unless it's the entire chest. It reminds me of the ridgeback not being a true ridgeback without the ridge.
If you breed a mismark to a mismark, you get partis very quickly. Look at the pedigree of this dog who is a full parti:

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=111520

He is the product of a 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister breeding, linebred on a dog who was known to throw mismarks (toes, chest spots etc)
 

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I like phantoms but I am iffy on where they came from, its why its important to do pedigree research.

I would say no on the first breeder and the second one suggested I would hesitate only in the fact that her Phantoms come from Kit-Sue who is a very heavy breeder.

Phantom is a disqualifying fault in AKC. Historically, when these puppies popped up in a well bred litter, they were highly discounted or available for the cost of their spay/neuter surgery. The fact that people now buy them for $$$ from obviously bad breeders makes my head go
This really rubs me the wrong way. There are bad breeder in EVERY color/size in Poodles. The PCA is extremely biased and it irks me when people say "Multicolored poodles should not be bred" I have yet to get a good reason for them to discredit the non solid color poodles. Because the standard says so? Well the PCA made the standard they can change the standard. Poodle breeders have been culling multicolored puppies all in the name of winning, back in the day when showing became showing it was whites and blacks who were winning and being exhibited so that's what was being bred. The history of the poodle is very diluted and not real clear. I do think that the multicolors are being exploited. But color should be a prefrence and if it does not affect the health of the dog I see nothing wrong with multicolred Poodles.
 

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I completely agree with purple poodle
just because something doesn't meet the standard...why does that discount it as a amazing pet? of course pedigree should be investigated but I don't think the phantom colouring is so bad that it should be discredited.

and from what I've read Browns and reds weren't part of the breed standard at first but were expected eventually.
 

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Oh, well thank you for clarifying that =]

I remember reading something on a brown st. poodle breeders page that browns and reds weren't part of the standard only the whites and blacks. perhaps I read wrong? =]]
 

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They might have meant that they aren't shown as often or finish like the other colors.

I'm still going to go back to ridgebacks. They cull those without ridges and the surprising thing is that the ridge is a genetic disorder that is actually bad for the dogs but breeders will refuse to see that because the standard says it. This is just color. Color cannot be bad for a dog's structure, temperament, and overall appearance. If one person doesn't believe that the poodle born with more white than black (creating a parti) doesn't look regal and elegant that's their opinion. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and a piece of paper that says this is beautiful but this isn't doesn't change a person's opinion.

The way I look at something is if it's treated like it's exotic the price that it could be sold for goes up because the buyer feels like they have a rarity. When that goes away it becomes like all other things, normal.
 

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They might have meant that they aren't shown as often or finish like the other colors.

I'm still going to go back to ridgebacks. They cull those without ridges and the surprising thing is that the ridge is a genetic disorder that is actually bad for the dogs but breeders will refuse to see that because the standard says it.

I feel that BBC show might have just picked a few dogs that has problems and are saying the whole breed will come out sick etc.... Honestly i do not know about ridgebacks so i can comment but it will be wise to research this info before trusting some tv show.

Maybe I will ask a breeder about it at the next show and see what she says. Also culling can mean spay and neuter from a breeding program this does not mean they have to kill them.

This is why I think that show was biased

but anyways sorry I am off topic back to parti's :)
 

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I would say no on the first breeder and the second one suggested I would hesitate only in the fact that her Phantoms come from Kit-Sue who is a very heavy breeder.
This, to me, is the major concern when looking for a non solid poodle. Most of them have very questionable backgrounds because mainstream breeders have removed them from their breeding programs. All you can really do (if you have your heart set on a non solid) is look at the current and more recent breeders, because chances are you'll see something you don't like in the pedigree.
 
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