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I have a brindle dog. It's my understanding that you don't get brindle without at least one copy of sable (my boy has two copies). The definitive indicator of brindle is stripes on the skin. For example, the little bit of shaved skin at the base of my boy's tail shows cute chevron stripes.

He's almost 18 months old and has changed colors not just with age but whether he's been recently clipped.

If you have the cash and are really curious, you could get a DNA panel that includes coat colors. That's what I did, partially because he has nice diversity and if he passes all his evaluations, his breeder/co-owner and I may offer him at stud. I'm working on finishing his UKC conformation championship. He is already showing a lot of talent for obedience and rally.
 

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Hi there!
I am getting this toy male from a breeder and we are trying to determine what his coloring is. His mother was Black and father chocolate, and he is the only non-solid pup to come from the litter.
I have done some research and here’s my thoughts. 1) he has distinctive markings like a phantom 2) however his coat seems muddied like a brindle 3) does that mean he could be a brindle phantom?
Attached some pics of different ages. Look forward to hearing your thoughts!
Ask his breeder to check colors on his pedigree going back a few generations to see what colors his lines throw.
 

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Ask his breeder to check colors on his pedigree going back a few generations to see what colors his lines throw.
I'm not sure how helpful looking at pedigrees will be as far as checking for brindle goes--when we registered Hobbes with AKC, the breeder put his color down as "black and silver" because (1) that's what she thought his adult color might be and (B) the AKC does not recognize "brindle" as a poodle color. You may already know that multi-colored poodles cannot show in AKC conformation. UKC CONFORMATION rules treat solid colored poodles and multi-colored poodles as separate breeds, even though the registration papers for either would say "standard poodle"—both my solid and brindle boys are AKC and UKC "standard poodles."
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Thank you all for the info! I’m not at all interested in showing - I am getting a toy purely for the breeds wonderful personality. My partners family had a toy who lived with me for a while and I absolutely fell in love with him - unfortunately he passed at the end of 2020 at age 14, but luckily I was already on a waiting list for a toy of my own. I will be happy regardless of his color, I am just so intrigued as I have never seen a non-solid poodle. And in fact, watching his colors change is part of the surprise :)

we are getting him from the same breeder and this is the first time in her 26 years of breeding that a pup has come out with these colors - so very exciting! 2 weeks and counting!
 

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Thank you all for the info! I’m not at all interested in showing - I am getting a toy purely for the breeds wonderful personality. My partners family had a toy who lived with me for a while and I absolutely fell in love with him - unfortunately he passed at the end of 2020 at age 14, but luckily I was already on a waiting list for a toy of my own. I will be happy regardless of his color, I am just so intrigued as I have never seen a non-solid poodle. And in fact, watching his colors change is part of the surprise :)

we are getting him from the same breeder and this is the first time in her 26 years of breeding that a pup has come out with these colors - so very exciting! 2 weeks and counting!
How exciting this must be for you..👏😊
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I would say the puppy is a sable. I’m not seeing anything strongly indicating phantom as a set pattern.
[/QUOTE
How exciting this must be for you..👏😊
I am beyond excited! I have everything ready for him, just need him to arrive now. I have been counting down the days, a 9 week wait has never felt so long haha. Can’t wait to share more pics with you when he arrives!
 

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I'm not sure how helpful looking at pedigrees will be as far as checking for brindle goes--when we registered Hobbes with AKC, the breeder put his color down as "black and silver" because (1) that's what she thought his adult color might be and (B) the AKC does not recognize "brindle" as a poodle color. You may already know that multi-colored poodles cannot show in AKC conformation. UKC CONFORMATION rules treat solid colored poodles and multi-colored poodles as separate breeds, even though the registration papers for either would say "standard poodle"—both my solid and brindle boys are AKC and UKC "standard poodles."
Yup. AKC may dictate breed standards in the USA but their rigidity does nothing good for tracking breed lines and what is real for the breed. It alters the facts. You can't breed something out of a line if your records aren't accurate. Having a fault identified by a type/color could involve a health issue relation maybe. Colirs are a fault because they relate to pigmentations. I bred GSDs and Standard Poodles. White German Shepherds are pure German Shepheds. They are quite healthy. They are not Albino. They have dark eyes and black noses just like Poodle black points. Germany doesn't allow them. AKC does not recognize them at all. Seeing color included on pedigrees allows you to target recessives. I bred GSDs for solid black German Shepherds. Just thought a breeder would have the pedigree lines with colors available to you for definition of what is carried. Has there been Brindles in the past? There should be an ✅ Other box and account for their breeding appearances in the lines, at least. My opinion. I say, because Poodles originated from multi crossings throughout their evolution, brindles had to come out of sighthound Whippets, Greyhounds and such somewhere. Recognition of all their combinations could quelch the mystery and track what is a fact of their nature and give accuracy to their lines. Black and gray doesn't imply a solid color either for registration. It should be an International standard. You miss out on the beauty that can be made from the pure bloodline.😊
 

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Yup. AKC may dictate breed standards in the USA but their rigidity does nothing good for tracking breed lines and what is real for the breed. It alters the facts. You can't breed something out of a line if your records aren't accurate. Having a fault identified by a type/color could involve a health issue relation maybe. Colirs are a fault because they relate to pigmentations. I bred GSDs and Standard Poodles. White German Shepherds are pure German Shepheds. They are quite healthy. They are not Albino. They have dark eyes and black noses just like Poodle black points. Germany doesn't allow them. AKC does not recognize them at all. Seeing color included on pedigrees allows you to target recessives. I bred GSDs for solid black German Shepherds. Just thought a breeder would have the pedigree lines with colors available to you for definition of what is carried. Has there been Brindles in the past? There should be an ✅ Other box and account for their breeding appearances in the lines, at least. My opinion. I say, because Poodles originated from multi crossings throughout their evolution, brindles had to come out of sighthound Whippets, Greyhounds and such somewhere. Recognition of all their combinations could quelch the mystery and track what is a fact of their nature and give accuracy to their lines. Black and gray doesn't imply a solid color either for registration. It should be an International standard. You miss out on the beauty that can be made from the pure bloodline.😊
Recessives are interesting, aren't they? The breeder of my solid blue boy once had a brindle show up in a litter--only once. She breeds for brown dogs.

I read somewhere that brindles didn't show up in the records until the 1950s, well before the genetic test options we have today. My private opinion is that somewhere along the line a Dutch Shepherd jumped the fence and the poodle-looking pups that carried genes that could make brindle were bred until recessives met up and were expressed.

Here's the weird and interesting reports on "traits" that appeared in my brindle boy's genetic report (Optimal Selection/Genoscoper, now Wisdom Panel):

Coat type:
Coat LengthI/I: The dog is genetically long-haired.
Furnishings / Improper Coat in Portuguese Water Dogs (marker test)AA/TT: The dog is genetically likely to express furnishings.
KRT71 c.451C>T(p.Arg151Trp)T/T: The dog carries two copies of the tested allele causing curly coat. The dog is likely to have curly hair, if it is long-haired.
MC5R c.237A>TC/T: The dog carries one copy of the allele associated with heavy shedding and one copy of the allele associated low shedding. This genotype has no effect on a dog with furnishings, but non-wire-haired dog with this genotype is likely heavy or seasonal shedder.
Also does not carry the hairlessness alleles of either the American Hairless Terrier or the Scottish Deerhound.
Coat Color: No copies of merle, harlequin, dilution, or albinism.

And finally, morphology:
chr10:11072007 C/T: The dog carries one copy of an allele typically associated with floppy ears, and one copy
of an allele typically associated with pricked ears.

And in spite of these oddball indications, he's a fully registered "PR"-prefixed AKC poodle that is also registered in UKC.
 

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Yup. AKC may dictate breed standards in the USA but their rigidity does nothing good for tracking breed lines and what is real for the breed. My opinion. I say, because Poodles originated from multi crossings throughout their evolution, brindles had to come out of sighthound Whippets, Greyhounds and such somewhere. Recognition of all their combinations could quelch the mystery and track what is a fact of their nature and give accuracy to their lines. Black and gray doesn't imply a solid color either for registration. It should be an International standard.
First of all, it is not the American Kennel Club that dictates standards. Standards are set by the national breed organization. For poodles, it is the Poodle Club of America.

Brindle does not necessarily come from a cross to sighthounds. It could have been incorporated many years ago from a number of other backgrounds. However, since the standards of every country that I know of specify solid color for poodles, there were very few brindles seen in the past because reputable breeders simply did not use them in their breeding programs when a brindle cropped up. That applies to abstracts, partis, and phantoms, too. In recent years, there have been people breeding dogs who know very little about breed standards, so they have seized on anything uncommon and touted it as rare and desirable. Back in the 1980s, we had a brindle crop up in our lines. We sold it as a pet with an agreement to have it neutered and spayed/neutered the dogs that produced it.
 

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Recessives are interesting, aren't they? The breeder of my solid blue boy once had a brindle show up in a litter--only once. She breeds for brown dogs.

I read somewhere that brindles didn't show up in the records until the 1950s, well before the genetic test options we have today. My private opinion is that somewhere along the line a Dutch Shepherd jumped the fence and the poodle-looking pups that carried genes that could make brindle were bred until recessives met up and were expressed.

Here's the weird and interesting reports on "traits" that appeared in my brindle boy's genetic report (Optimal Selection/Genoscoper, now Wisdom Panel):

Coat type:
Coat LengthI/I: The dog is genetically long-haired.
Furnishings / Improper Coat in Portuguese Water Dogs (marker test)AA/TT: The dog is genetically likely to express furnishings.
KRT71 c.451C>T(p.Arg151Trp)T/T: The dog carries two copies of the tested allele causing curly coat. The dog is likely to have curly hair, if it is long-haired.
MC5R c.237A>TC/T: The dog carries one copy of the allele associated with heavy shedding and one copy of the allele associated low shedding. This genotype has no effect on a dog with furnishings, but non-wire-haired dog with this genotype is likely heavy or seasonal shedder.
Also does not carry the hairlessness alleles of either the American Hairless Terrier or the Scottish Deerhound.
Coat Color: No copies of merle, harlequin, dilution, or albinism.

And finally, morphology:
chr10:11072007 C/T: The dog carries one copy of an allele typically associated with floppy ears, and one copy
of an allele typically associated with pricked ears.

And in spite of these oddball indications, he's a fully registered "PR"-prefixed AKC poodle that is also registered in UKC.
Interesting for sure. I think Schnauzer or CockerSpaniel when I 1st hear the term furnishings. Isn't that funny. One of the Russian Poodle lines that introduced Phantom is the Hanovia lines from what I understand. I think the breeder was **** Owens? He has passed. He introduced separation of colors into his line. Prior, he only had solid color dogs. I love learning about each breeds origins.
 

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First of all, it is not the American Kennel Club that dictates standards. Standards are set by the national breed organization. For poodles, it is the Poodle Club of America.

Brindle does not necessarily come from a cross to sighthounds. It could have been incorporated many years ago from a number of other backgrounds. However, since the standards of every country that I know of specify solid color for poodles, there were very few brindles seen in the past because reputable breeders simply did not use them in their breeding programs when a brindle cropped up. That applies to abstracts, partis, and phantoms, too. In recent years, there have been people breeding dogs who know very little about breed standards, so they have seized on anything uncommon and touted it as rare and desirable. Back in the 1980s, we had a brindle crop up in our lines. We sold it as a pet with an agreement to have it neutered and spayed/neutered the dogs that produced it.
Wow Johanna. I was trying to not be blunt. I know quite well the reasons to breed out faults and undesirable qualities in the interest of bettering the breed. I was trying not to be snobby or hurt anyone's feelings who desire something different. Poodles did originate from multi breeds as documentaried. I was giving an example not known fact as an object of conversation. Theory, if you will. Thanks for your opinion and correction. Noted.
 

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First of all, it is not the American Kennel Club that dictates standards. Standards are set by the national breed organization. For poodles, it is the Poodle Club of America.

Brindle does not necessarily come from a cross to sighthounds. It could have been incorporated many years ago from a number of other backgrounds. However, since the standards of every country that I know of specify solid color for poodles, there were very few brindles seen in the past because reputable breeders simply did not use them in their breeding programs when a brindle cropped up. That applies to abstracts, partis, and phantoms, too. In recent years, there have been people breeding dogs who know very little about breed standards, so they have seized on anything uncommon and touted it as rare and desirable. Back in the 1980s, we had a brindle crop up in our lines. We sold it as a pet with an agreement to have it neutered and spayed/neutered the dogs that produced it.
I would as a breeder sell pups as pets with undesired traits. Spay/neutering agreements and no longer breeding the line. Thanks for your clarifications.
 

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Recessives are interesting, aren't they? The breeder of my solid blue boy once had a brindle show up in a litter--only once. She breeds for brown dogs.

I read somewhere that brindles didn't show up in the records until the 1950s, well before the genetic test options we have today. My private opinion is that somewhere along the line a Dutch Shepherd jumped the fence and the poodle-looking pups that carried genes that could make brindle were bred until recessives met up and were expressed.

Here's the weird and interesting reports on "traits" that appeared in my brindle boy's genetic report (Optimal Selection/Genoscoper, now Wisdom Panel):

Coat type:
Coat LengthI/I: The dog is genetically long-haired.
Furnishings / Improper Coat in Portuguese Water Dogs (marker test)AA/TT: The dog is genetically likely to express furnishings.
KRT71 c.451C>T(p.Arg151Trp)T/T: The dog carries two copies of the tested allele causing curly coat. The dog is likely to have curly hair, if it is long-haired.
MC5R c.237A>TC/T: The dog carries one copy of the allele associated with heavy shedding and one copy of the allele associated low shedding. This genotype has no effect on a dog with furnishings, but non-wire-haired dog with this genotype is likely heavy or seasonal shedder.
Also does not carry the hairlessness alleles of either the American Hairless Terrier or the Scottish Deerhound.
Coat Color: No copies of merle, harlequin, dilution, or albinism.

And finally, morphology:
chr10:11072007 C/T: The dog carries one copy of an allele typically associated with floppy ears, and one copy
of an allele typically associated with pricked ears.

And in spite of these oddball indications, he's a fully registered "PR"-prefixed AKC poodle that is also registered in UKC.
That's a really interesting genetic readout.
 

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First of all, it is not the American Kennel Club that dictates standards. Standards are set by the national breed organization. For poodles, it is the Poodle Club of America.

Brindle does not necessarily come from a cross to sighthounds. It could have been incorporated many years ago from a number of other backgrounds. However, since the standards of every country that I know of specify solid color for poodles, there were very few brindles seen in the past because reputable breeders simply did not use them in their breeding programs when a brindle cropped up. That applies to abstracts, partis, and phantoms, too. In recent years, there have been people breeding dogs who know very little about breed standards, so they have seized on anything uncommon and touted it as rare and desirable. Back in the 1980s, we had a brindle crop up in our lines. We sold it as a pet with an agreement to have it neutered and spayed/neutered the dogs that produced it.
PCA is not the only arbiter of standards; also in the US, the UKC has a poodle breed club, which embraces both solids and multi-colored dogs.

Parti-colored poodles are clearly part of the historic record, as evidenced of many paintings of dogs from the pre-photography era (Poodle History Project). But for some reason, multi-colored poodles were written out of the breed standards in the early 20th century. The focus on just showing solid-colored dogs is (to my mind, anyway), just weird and wrong.

What gripes me about breed standards, though, is its focus solely on appearance. In conformation classes--where breeding stock is evaluated--there is no requirement for health testing or proof of performance ability in order to win a class or earn a championship. Sure, breeders agree to a code of ethics, but nothing stops them from breeding dogs carrying deadly genes, unreported defects, or whole lines of dogs that die early from cancer.

Off my soapbox--I have to leave to take the young man to UKC conformation shows. He's too young yet to have had his OFA hips done, but he's earned a fistful of performance titles and made UKC's All Star list in Rally by this first birthday. My solid boy was unable to focus much until he was 2 years old--AND then developed Addison's.
 
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I am beyond excited! I have everything ready for him, just need him to arrive now. I have been counting down the days, a 9 week wait has never felt so long haha. Can’t wait to share more pics with you when he arrives!
I look forward to seeing the pictures of the puppy..💞🐩
When I found Darling Darla she wasn’t born yet. We waited over 10 weeks for her to be born, then picked her out and her getting ready to leave her momma. Was so exciting. 😊👏
 

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PCA is not the only arbiter of standards; also in the US, the UKC has a poodle breed club, which embraces both solids and multi-colored dogs.
Sorry, I never think of UKC - there are almost no UKC events within 400 miles. When the UKC started becoming more common (1980s, I think) it seemed that the people who were most interested were people who did not like the AKC for whatever reason.

I think I mentioned in an earlier post that most, if not all, poodle breed standards around the world specify solid color.
 

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To the OP, I think I have a brindle pup that is a similar pattern (dark brindle? reverse brindle?). The breeder expected solid colors so was really thrown by this one and thought she was sable. In the photo I posted in my history she is 12-13 weeks old.

She hasn’t changed at all in color since I’ve had her, though the vet is curious to see if she’ll silver out. I started out really wanting solid black or brown, and ended up getting a swirl lol
 

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Sorry, I never think of UKC - there are almost no UKC events within 400 miles. When the UKC started becoming more common (1980s, I think) it seemed that the people who were most interested were people who did not like the AKC for whatever reason.

I think I mentioned in an earlier post that most, if not all, poodle breed standards around the world specify solid color.
Yes, UKC's reach is fairly spotty. We have 3 or 4 clubs in driving distance here in Pennsylvania. Our club's conformation shows make more money than performance events and they can afford to bring in out-of-state folks if the air fares aren't too bad. We could never do that for performance, so I worked pretty hard to get approved to judge both rally and obedience.

UKC is my preferred venue. I sometimes compete in AKC performance and only briefly even considered showing my solid boy in conformation--it just didn't look fun and took too much money.

This is a "baby" picture of Hobbes, before I got him, plus one of him from a show last November, aged about 13 to 14 months.
Dog Water dog Dog breed Carnivore Companion dog
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Mammal Companion dog
 
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