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Hi there!
I am getting this toy male from a breeder and we are trying to determine what his coloring is. His mother was Black and father chocolate, and he is the only non-solid pup to come from the litter.
I have done some research and here’s my thoughts. 1) he has distinctive markings like a phantom 2) however his coat seems muddied like a brindle 3) does that mean he could be a brindle phantom?
Attached some pics of different ages. Look forward to hearing your thoughts!
 

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Welcome and congrats on the new puppy! My guess is brindle, but I'm not certain enough to lay money on the outcome. Phantoms normally have a butterfly shaped mark across the chest, and I'm not seeing it in these photos.
 

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Thank you so much! Yes initially I thought phantom but in other pics I can really see coloration in his coat. He almost looks chocolate with red markings. Will have to wait until I get him and see for myself. Will share more photos :)
 

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From what I've read, sable and phantom lay on the same locus and cannot appear together. I think the puppy is brindle (but I'm no expert).
I have no clue on colors, lol. I just don't see stripes. Maybe just sable? But again, I am just guessing. I have no idea of genetics on color in dogs.
 

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From what I've read, sable and phantom lay on the same locus and cannot appear together. I think the puppy is brindle (but I'm no expert).
I am leaning in the same direction, brindle seems to be most accurate but again, it’s so hard to tell based on low quality images. Another question if you wouldn’t mind - I have seen conflicting research saying that the brindle pattern will remain throughout the dogs life and then other readings stating it will fade. My toy seems to be changing from black (almost jet black) when he was first born to a chocolate brown. Is it likely he will clear to something else? I have seen pictures of puppies with similar coloringwho clear to blue/silver.
 

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Welcome and congrats on the new puppy! My guess is brindle, but I'm not certain enough to lay money on the outcome. Phantoms normally have a butterfly shaped mark across the chest, and I'm not seeing it in these photos.
Just out of interest, what are your guesses on his color fading? He was born almost jet black and his coat has since faded to a chocolate brown with the markings you see above. To me this suggests he will clear to something else, and I have seen pics of brindles with similar coloring that fade to blue/silver when they age. What are your thoughts?
 

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It will certainly be interesting to watch him grow and mature. I suppose if you were impatient to find his color you could get him tested.
 

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It's common across dog breeds for brindles to start out very dark and the brindling to appear more and expand and they grow.
Being a long haired dog, you don't see the striping (unless shaved short).
He looks like a brindle to me. You can probably expect the brown (technically/genetically dark 'fawn', not the same as actual brown aka chocolate) to become more prominent.
Sable is a possibility but as far as I can tell from the pics, the colour goes all the way from skin to tips (sable would have black tips on lighter hairs)
The fading, which would turn it to darker (blue) or lighter (silver) gray with fawn, is a whole other aspect. However since you say his parents are black and chocolate, it sounds like neither carry a fading gene and therefore would not pass it to their pups.
 

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I'm not putting my money anywhere with this pup, lol. His splotchy patterning in his first pictures looks quite similar to a brindle Scotty I know. I couldn't tell what pattern the Scotty was, due to his long hair, until his owner explained. However, the color shown in the last picture looks similar to what a very young wild sable German or Belgian shepherd might have.
 

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Hello, I just joined the forum as I am looking to add to my family. My 14 year old toy poodle and I need another fur baby as we lost our 18 year old toy in November. I am searching for another toy and would like a phantom. Does anyone know a reputable breeder. I am in upstate NY, but will travel and or nanny a pup home.
 

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(momentary interlude here :))


Hello, I just joined the forum as I am looking to add to my family. My 14 year old toy poodle and I need another fur baby as we lost our 18 year old toy in November. I am searching for another toy and would like a phantom. Does anyone know a reputable breeder. I am in upstate NY, but will travel and or nanny a pup home.
Hi and Welcome!

I'm very sorry to hear that you've sent your 18 year old over the Bridge. It's very hard to lose them.

You'll get more personalized responses and post exposure if you move to Member Introductions Member Introductions

or Finding The Right Puppy & Breeder

and start your own thread.

I will say this, things have changed a lot since you last looked for a poodle so I'll add this to get you started looking for a quality breeder.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. Many poodle colors change thru their lives.
Temperament is lifelong trait.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List located in Find the Right Puppy & Breeder.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my abbreviated personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time :)

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
 

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(momentary interlude here :))




Hi and Welcome!

I'm very sorry to hear that you've sent your 18 year old over the Bridge. It's very hard to lose them.

You'll get more personalized responses and post exposure if you move to Member Introductions Member Introductions

or Finding The Right Puppy & Breeder

and start your own thread.

I will say this, things have changed a lot since you last looked for a poodle so I'll add this to get you started looking for a quality breeder.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. Many poodle colors change thru their lives.
Temperament is lifelong trait.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List located in Find the Right Puppy & Breeder.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my abbreviated personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time :)

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
I truly appreciate all this information. There is a local (1 hour away) breeder. Found him through AKC, and he has all the things on his website you advise to watch out for as bad. PayPal, cost starts at $6000 and goes up from there, ships all over the country, no genetic testing. He has a phantom available as of today, previously reserved, family backed out. I am so confused.
 

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I truly appreciate all this information. There is a local (1 hour away) breeder. Found him through AKC, and he has all the things on his website you advise to watch out for as bad. PayPal, cost starts at $6000 and goes up from there, ships all over the country, no genetic testing. He has a phantom available as of today, previously reserved, family backed out. I am so confused.
Let's continue this on your other thread :)
 

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I truly appreciate all this information. There is a local (1 hour away) breeder. Found him through AKC, and he has all the things on his website you advise to watch out for as bad. PayPal, cost starts at $6000 and goes up from there, ships all over the country, no genetic testing. He has a phantom available as of today, previously reserved, family backed out. I am so confused.
Run away from that breeder! There are red flags all over the place! Instead of using AKC, look for breeder recommendations from the nearest poodle club. You can find one by going to www.poodleclubofamerica.org. On the main page there is a box below the picture that says "Looking for a Poodle". Click on it to begin researching reputable breeders in your area.
 
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