Poodle Forum banner

1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Sweet happy fun loving poodle, personality completely changed after neuter.....common?

Has anyone ever seen this happen?


I'm not saying the neuter caused this, I'm just trying to figure out what might have caused this.

Okay so I know this poodle and have worked with the poodled, cared for this poodle on multiple occaisions. In other words I know this poodle well.

He went in at about 7 months of age to get neutered. Before that he was always a very social dog, always wagging his tail. Happy. Friendly towards all dogs and all people.

Well he got neutered and I quickly saw a change in his personality. He wasn't nearly as friendly as he used to be. He wasn't as trusting of people. He would growl at people more. He started fights with other dogs, including other dogs in the home. (And my dogs too, he was a playmate of theirs but my dogs no longer play with him for their safety and to be quite honest his, My Terrier if she got ahold of him could really hurt him, she had never been in a fight and I would like to keep it that way).

This happened almost immediately after the surgery, at first when they brought him home and he started biting at them that day, we assumed it was due to pain.

Well they got him in training classes he had and he did okay at first but he was a bit fearful, which wasn't his personality. He didn't care for the trainer at all but they pushed on. He got a bit better toward people but toward other dogs he got worse and worse. Until finally the trainer asked them to leave because he was causing too many problems in class. But offered to do private training.

So they did that for awhile and he got better and he started trusting other dogs again but he would still start fights and whats worse he started growling at every human he saw outside he owners.

this dog was very well socialized to begin with. Lived in a home with 2 children 8 and 13. Both kids have always been wonderful and go to all training classes with all their dogs. He lives in a home with 2 other dogs. They take him to visit friends and family and other dogs.

But he just keeps getting worse.

He is a year old now (well actually close to 16 months ) and he hasn't been the same happy go lucky, friendly dog he started as since he went in that day for the neuter. Could something have happened at the vets office before he went under or after he came too that might have started this behavior?

Could it be the neuter that caused this behavior?


They have been working with a behaviorist the last 4 months. Small progress has been made. He has never been abused or hit or even yelled at really.
He has been in the most loving home he could be in. He was with his mother until this family took him. The woman that bred him was going to have him put down, he was a runt that no one wanted so they took him in for free actually they got him the day the woman brought him up to the vets to be put down.



Worse thing is they are having to make a decision whether to keep him or not and they don't think they can, he snapped at their older daughter unprovoked the other day, she just came in the room and he came at her.


Instead of putting him down the behaviorist is willing to take him in and continue working with him and possibly rehome in to a better situation for him. Which they are most likely going to do.

But what could have caused this behavior shift?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
I wanted to add this dog have been checked for health problems including neurological problems and he keeps coming back with a clean bill of health.

He is a 1 year old Toy poodle
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,905 Posts
My gut reaction to this is that maybe something traumatic happened to him while he was at the vet's to make him fearful and distrusting. From my childhood experiences with a little chihuahua, it can happen fairly easily with the little guys. I hope they figure it out soon, poor little fella.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
I think it is a coincidence. I think he was coming into his second fear period: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html. and for some reason (training, naturally poor temperament) he did not come out the other side as a good citizen.

If everything else has been tried, have they tried NOT being so nice? How about sending this bully to boot camp. Get a prong collar. Leash him up anytime he is out of crate. Implement Nothing in Life is Free training. Keep him off of all furniture. All food is hand fed and only after he performs some act of service/obedience. Teach him tricks/obedience commands. Give him a job to do. If he is running through his paces, he will not have time to worry about having to beat up on other dogs. I have seen this work for another bratty Toy Poodle so it couldn't hurt to try.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I know they have done everything the behaviorist has told them to do. And after this incident with their daughter they said he will no longer be in their home. They were going to put him down but the behaviorist is planning on taking him. The behaviorist feels that maybe the environment he is in is way too stressful. 2 kids and 2 other dogs.

Now their other dogs 1 is an Agility champ and the other is awesome with obedience but has yet to compete.

They are good owners and would do anything for their dogs, but they feel they can't help this dog and that is might have been a mistake taking him. The last year has been hell for them and these aren't the kind of people to just give up on a dog.

They have had a few challenging cases in the past but nothing like this.

There other dogs are a Papillon and a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever

I wanted to add as well that they do have one of the best behaviorists in the area and I totally trust his judgement. He does do the NILF training he recommends it highly and I like that he will not physically force a dog into submission like many behaviorist around here do (and unsuccessfully at that)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,905 Posts
I think it is a coincidence. I think he was coming into his second fear period: http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html. and for some reason (training, naturally poor temperament) he did not come out the other side as a good citizen.

If everything else has been tried, have they tried NOT being so nice? How about sending this bully to boot camp. Get a prong collar. Leash him up anytime he is out of crate. Implement Nothing in Life is Free training. Keep him off of all furniture. All food is hand fed and only after he performs some act of service/obedience. Teach him tricks/obedience commands. Give him a job to do. If he is running through his paces, he will not have time to worry about having to beat up on other dogs. I have seen this work for another bratty Toy Poodle so it couldn't hurt to try.
Wish I had known about this when I was younger. Thanks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,956 Posts
I spoke with one of my vets about this when I managed a humane society as this was a question I was asked quite often (since we REQUIRED spay/neuter on every adopted animal). The way my veterinarian described it made complete sense to me... He said, neutering will not change PERSONALITY, but it may change or eliminate certain BEHAVIORS that some unneutered dogs may have (marking, roaming, aggression, etc.)

Personality is not generally determined by presence or absence of testosterone/estrogen, etc. It is determined by genetics, nature, nurture, environment, etc...

I agree with cbrand that maybe this pup needs a stronger hand (not mean or harsh - just more assertive) Let him understand that his attitude is not appreciated or accepted and he needs to knock it off.

It's a tough situation - I've never had anything like this happen (to my knowledge) with any of the thousands of animals we had spayed/neutered through the humane society - I'm sure I would've heard about it from an unhappy owner if it had!!

Hopefully they'll be able to find a resolution and won't have to rehome him, but the kids need to come first - and if he's not happy there either then no one wins...

Let us know what happens!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Now there vet mentioned it could have something to do with the fact he was a runt. And that runts can have a lot of problems (and yes he came from bad breeding). It was also mentioned by another professional that perhaps teh anestisia messed with his mind a bit. Or even something could be off with his wiring.

The vet I know feels it wasn't the neuter but agrees it could have something to do with the anestisia and that this sometimes does happen with dogs.



Oh and an update: The behaviorist took the dog about a half hour ago but said he would keep the family informed on the dogs progress and let them know if he is able to adopt him out.
The family just let me know when they called to set up a playdate with my poodle and terrier with their dogs. I have to say though that they are all crushed, but they had the behaviorist pick the dog up while the kids were at school in order to cusion the blow (kids said good bye this morning). The whole family is upset because they just couldn't do anymore for him
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
You may have to go back to the question: Why was the original breeder trying to put the dog to sleep? Runt? I don't think size could have been an issue since the Tiny Toys are in high demand and they actually command a higher price.

What did the breed know?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
You may have to go back to the question: Why was the original breeder trying to put the dog to sleep? Runt? I don't think size could have been an issue since the Tiny Toys are in high demand and they actually command a higher price.

What did the breed know?

They were at the vet with their NSDTR when the woman came in with the puppy (she was a hobby breeder, she said she bred her female because she thought she would make cute puppies.) Anyways there were 4 pups in the litter. She kept one. She sold 2 at 7 weeks of age (which is actually illegal in a lot of places around here but not here, you can still get away with selling at 6 weeks which isn't good). And this puppy at 14 weeks of age she was unable to sell and she said she can't afford to keep him around and he isn't going to bring her in any money so she was going to put him down because no one was interested in him.

That is all they know and I know. But from personal experience I do know how many problems a runt can have.

Infact I know how many problems these bred down byb dogs Tiny Toys and Teacups have. I have 3 relatives that have 1 and none of them are healthy, now there health problems presented later. My parents dog (tiny toy poodle) has seizures, liver problems, and breathing problems which showed up around 2 years of age. (Breeder actually got shut down for being a puppy mill a few months ago, they thought she was a reputable breeder) Amazingly at age 5 she is still here. But I doubt she will make it even to 8 years old. My cousin has a Teacup Poodle and he has seizures and major temperment problems that began after the seizures (believed to be neurological)....they are having to put the dog down this week. And I have an aunt who had one that was just a runt it was a poodle/Chihuahua mix and the dog died 3 weeks after bringing her home, she had a blood sugar problem that no one picked up on. Like she was born diabetic or something.

So I do think him being a runt could have something to do with it I just don't know what
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,537 Posts
I agree with the NILIF training. I am glad he is going in a different home (nothing against your friend!!). Perhaps it was too stressful an enviornment.

I dont believe it had anything to do with the neuter. I also dont know What the vet you were talking to was thinking about the anesthesia affecting behavior! The anesthesia (esp gas) leaves the system very quickly. Gas in a matter of minutes, and injectables in a matter of hours. NONE of these drugs have Any affect on lingering behavior.

I have mixed feelings on rehomeing an Aggressive dog that is actually going after people.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,784 Posts
I dont believe it had anything to do with the neuter. I also dont know What the vet you were talking to was thinking about the anesthesia affecting behavior! The anesthesia (esp gas) leaves the system very quickly. Gas in a matter of minutes, and injectables in a matter of hours. NONE of these drugs have Any affect on lingering behavior.
Even though the anesthetic clears the system pretty quickly, it's possible for the animal to have lingering brain damage if the person administering the anesthetic is an idiot. One of the vet practices when I grew up was notorious among local vet techs for OD'ing animals. Pure sloppiness. A freaked out animal would resist going under, so they'd give it another shot. Then the animal would have too much anesthetic in its system and would stop breathing. :(

I'm glad the dog is going to a behaviorist for training and evaluation. It seems like the best chance for him.
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top