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Discussion Starter #1
Penny (Beauvoir Penelope Star) went winners bitch yesterday (Yuma?) so she now has a total of 6 points. Although she has had some nice wins against some very good quality bitches, it is slow going and expensive to pick up points one at a time.

Penny has terrific body, short back, amazing coat and she is a very sound mover with good carriage. Unfortunately she has an ugly head and she just doesn't have enough coat for her age.

Her owner is feeling the pinch and she wants to bring her home. I doubt that she will be able to find the time to keep coat and she has two other big dogs at home that are going to destroy what she does manage to grow. Sigh....
 

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It is a lot of hard work and care and can get very expensive. That is sad considering that she has made 6 points.

There is no such thing as a perfect poodle but having an ugly head must be tough.
 

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Yeah, the hard part is getting the majors! Nice to hear that she is doing some winning, sorry to hear that the owner is giving up. Or that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Are you handling Penny for her? Do you have any pics of Penny? I wish the owner luck with her. It is not easy to grow/maintain the show coat!
 

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That's too bad, but at least she has a loving home. I only have one pic of her from the Lubbock show, back in September, and it's from the back, so you can't see her head. I remember her being very pretty. If you have recent pics I would love to see them too.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
No recent pictures. She is going to the big show in Long Beach in a couple of weeks and her owner is traveling down from Utah to see her. Hopefully she will take some good pictures.

There is one judge in Long Beach who likes a Poodle with correct body. Perhaps he will...um.... look past her head.

Penny is being handled by Laurel Berg.
 

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Hmm, it is tough (and expensive!) to champion a dog picking up one point at a time. I can understand the owner's frustration.

It's becoming more and more evident to me that poodles are a tough breed to get a conformation title on! Our PWDs are a walk in the park by comparison. Shave them into a lion, grow their remaining hair long enough that it looks decent and you're away.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Haha. :) Is her head really that bad?
No, I'm being harsh. She has a plain head with a rather large, unfortunate eye. Poodles are some what of a head breed. Judges will forgive a plain or even ugly head on a dog, but it can be a deal breaker on a bitch. Judges often want pretty in a bitch.

Penny can absolutely finish. Showing as a puppy is hard. Many judges just won't "do" for a puppy. She would be at her most competitive as a mature bitch in full coat showing in the Open class.
 

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I hope the owner sticks with it, I would say it would be nice for her to come home and grow out some, but if the owner doesnt brush her just right it would set her back further(boy do I knowlol)

best of luck to Penny in Long Beach
 

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Wish I could go and see her in person, but I've decided not to go now. I am so upset with myself for missing the entry, Cbrand. Otherwise Ava would have been in there with her. Laurel is fantastic, which you already know. <g>

Will she be entered for Eukanuba on Saturday? I did get her entered for that... I was just sick about missing the other but I'm done beating myself up.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
is she with a handler then?
What color is she . ?
Yes with a pro-handler. She is Black (and a very good Black too). :)

Showing Poodles is not easy and it is even harder showing a bitch. Puppies can and do finish, but they are usually dogs not bitches. For a bitch to finish as a puppy, she has to be a real flyer. Penny isn't a flash and dash sort of girl. She is a good solid, sound bitch.

Penny has also had the bad luck to win at either smaller shows or at shows in regions where where a higher count is needed for more points. Example: If she had won in Colorado instead of Texas or California or if there had been more bitches in Wyoming, she could have had around 10 points now and she would be singled out.

In the end, putting a bitch puppy with a pro-handler is not really money well spent. Penny went out as a 6-9 month old puppy. That class is not very competitive. IMO, bitches are at their most competitive as an 11 month old puppy and then again probably as a 2 yr old in full coat, shown in the Open class.
 

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Yes with a pro-handler. She is Black (and a very good Black too). :)

Showing Poodles is not easy and it is even harder showing a bitch. Puppies can and do finish, but they are usually dogs not bitches. For a bitch to finish as a puppy, she has to be a real flyer. Penny isn't a flash and dash sort of girl. She is a good solid, sound bitch.

Penny has also had the bad luck to win at either smaller shows or at shows in regions where where a higher count is needed for more points. Example: If she had won in Colorado instead of Texas or California or if there had been more bitches in Wyoming, she could have had around 10 points now and she would be singled out.

In the end, putting a bitch puppy with a pro-handler is not really money well spent. Penny went out as a 6-9 month old puppy. That class is not very competitive. IMO, bitches are at their most competitive as an 11 month old puppy and then again probably as a 2 yr old in full coat, shown in the Open class.
Yes differnet regions have different point scales for sure I was surprised by Utah's ..I remember tha t the California Gasl used to come to Phoenix for cheap Majors..That is what they called it HA HA.. Then they drove our points up...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
It is harder to finish a bitch because you need to beat more Poodles in order to pick up points. So for example and these are made up #s, I can't remember the exact breed count for our area:

To get a 3 point major in dogs you have to beat 7 other Poodle dogs. To get a a 3 point major in bitches you would need to beat 11 other Poodle bitches.

On top of this, I really do think that judges are pickier about the bitches they put up. Many judges will put up a puppy dog but will only do for mature bitches. Since it is highly likely that a Champion bitch will be bred, I think a lot of judges want to see how a bitch finishes growing out and what she looks like cut into pattern. Plenty of dogs become Champions and never go on to be bred.

Also, at least in our area, people simply are not keeping and showing Poodle dogs. Why go to the trouble and expense to show a dog when you as a breeder most likely won't use him and few if any others will either. If people are going to show something, they are going to show their girls because they know they can go forward with them in their breeding program. At the last Colorado show I attended, there were only 2 dogs and both of them were puppies.
 

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If I understand you correctly, Cbrand, you feel it isn't worth the investment to show a bitch before two years of age? And you are saying they need this time to mature and grow into themselves?

I know that Taffy fell apart at 9 months when her first heat hit. She went from a really good, square puppy with tight feet to an awkward teenager!! We are waiting to see if she comes back to square and her feet tighten up again.

The one thing she has retained is her beautiful head! Thank goodness.
 

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Spoo...the problem is that if a bitch (or a dog for that matter) doesn't finish before it goes into adult trim, they really need a nice year to grow the hair required and mature in the body to compete in the open class. Since bitches rarely finish as puppies (except for your "super-puppies") my personal opinion is that it is best to show them some as a puppy for the experience, then put them away when they go into the adult trim until they have matured and have the hair to compete. My friend's bitch turned one when she needed her last major to finish. She was winning everything as a puppy. As soon as she went into the adult trim, she stopped winning. She just didn't have the hair to compete. Really, any dog or bitch that isn't finished before they go into the adult trim will most likely need to grow hair and mature to compete for majors in the open classes. If you have a bred-by, you may do better. There are very mature dogs/bitches with major hair in the open class, and they often have the poise and looks to be formidable competitors.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
If I understand you correctly, Cbrand, you feel it isn't worth the investment to show a bitch before two years of age? And you are saying they need this time to mature and grow into themselves?

I know that Taffy fell apart at 9 months when her first heat hit. She went from a really good, square puppy with tight feet to an awkward teenager!! We are waiting to see if she comes back to square and her feet tighten up again.

The one thing she has retained is her beautiful head! Thank goodness.
Right, if you are showing your own bitch, then what do you have to lose but your time and entry fees. Go out, show and have a good time. Showing a puppy is good practice and you can often pick up singles and once in a while a major.

However, if you are paying a pro something like $500 a weekend, then I think it is in your best interest to have a Poodle who is ready to win. This usually means a trained, mature Poodle in FULL coat. Otherwise you could just be burning money.
 
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