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Discussion starter · #141 ·
I’m struggling with something similar. Babykins has ulcerative colitis. Once I figured out she couldn‘t tolerate legumes, fish and excess fat and kept her on a very strict diet, she's been good. I haven't had to treat her with medication in 2 years.

We have had a really hot summer and I know my dog gets really hot outside, I can feel the heat on her when I touch her back. I had to give her a 10 day dose of Metronidazole and that normally kicks in within a day or two and once treatment ends she's completely normal. This time it never quite got her BM nice and solid and after a few days the squirts and vomiting returned. We're on our second 10 day dose of Metronidazole and I hope this sets her back to normal. The vet is thinking it's the heat that's stressing her.

We're limited her time outside when it's very hot and I hope that solves our problem.

Do you think this could be Peggy's problem?
Aw. Poor Babykins. :( We're lucky to live in a mild climate. A typical heat wave here is mid 70s with low humidity, and it's rare she's out in direct sun for very long.

She's nearing the end of her kibble supply, so I'm exploring options for how to proceed diet-wise. But I don't want to make any quick, dramatic changes that could set us back. She actually did better once I took her off the bland chicken & rice I use for acute illness and put her back on her regular food.

What process did you use to determine Babykins' intolerances?
 
I looked at most of the food and treats that I had fed her and tried to see what was common. I wrote a list out the ingredients. I didn’t worry about the “vitamins” added, just the other chemicals and identified foods.

Every time I gave her fish, she would get sick.... these were treats that were fish alone, nothing else - identifying fish as a problem was easy.

Legumes were in all the food and most treats (often lentils, peas or chickpea). I did some research and discovered legumes was high on the list of causing allergies/intolerances. By then I had switched her to chicken and rice. I used to give her some veggies as I was cutting them to prepare dinner (carrots, zucchini, lettuce) and one day I gave her some green beans. She was sick.... I googled and discovered green beans are legumes.

By this time the vet switched us to a prescription kibble, (Hills z/d) which hydrolyzed the protein (broke it up into single amino acids so nothing should provoke a response). It had hydrolyzed Legumes. She improved but not perfect. I decided to home cook so I could completely avoid legumes and got rewarded with no digestive issues. My thinking is the hydrolyzation process may not always be 100% complete especially since I bought a bag that the kibble was burnt and another the kibble wasn’t properly formed. Seemed a little sloppy.

I notice glycerin led to looser stools, but not mucous blood or vomiting and no middle of the night crisis. I avoi glycerin but I don’t put it in the same category of fish and legumes.

I was disgusted by the burnt kibble and decided to stick with home cooking And immediately her BMs were excellent. No more waking up in the middle of the night, no mucous, blood, vomiting bile etc.

My daughter feeds her dog Freshpet and it has peas in it. When we visited Babykins stole a few out of the bowl and got sick. More recently Freshpet has a very similar product, same ingredients but no peas, no other legumes. I use it daily as training treats and she is fine on that. That’s important feedback that she cannot tolerate legumes.

I have tried to find other dog food that didn’t have legumes and I gave up after reading so many ingredient lists.

I was stymied recently when her stool got soft and she had some mucus then vomiting, gas and stomach discomfort where she wants to lie quietly and not play and having diarrhea in the middle of the night. She was on metronidazole for 10 days. Normally she improves in a day or two and remains normal. This time she kept having loose stool and wasn’t back to normal. With in a week she was sick again and is back on another 10 day treatment. Her stool sample was normal, she doesn’t eat poop, lick things or drink water other than what I supply.

I do think it’s important to look at diet, it may not be the answer but there’s a good chance that it is. I hope you find the answer so Peggy is feeling better.

In our case we’re keeping cool getting exercise in the house when it’s so hot And I’m hopeful we’ll get our problem under control.
 
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I looked at most of the food and treats that I had fed her and tried to see what was common. I wrote a list out the ingredients. ...

Legumes were in all the food and most treats (often lentils, peas or chickpea). I did some research and discovered legumes was high on the list of causing allergies/intolerances. By then I had switched her to chicken and rice. I used to give her some veggies as I was cutting them to prepare dinner (carrots, zucchini, lettuce) and one day I gave her some green beans. She was sick.... I googled and discovered green beans are legumes...

By this time the vet switched us to a prescription kibble, (Hills z/d) which hydrolyzed the protein (broke it up into single amino acids so nothing should provoke a response). It had hydrolyzed Legumes. She improved but not perfect. I decided to home cook so I could completely avoid legumes and got rewarded with no digestive issues. ...

My daughter feeds her dog Freshpet and it has peas in it. When we visited Babykins stole a few out of the bowl and got sick. More recently Freshpet has a very similar product, same ingredients but no peas, no other legumes. I use it daily as training treats and she is fine on that. That’s important feedback that she cannot tolerate legumes....

I have tried to find other dog food that didn’t have legumes and I gave up after reading so many ingredient lists.
I do think it’s important to look at diet, it may not be the answer but there’s a good chance that it is.
I too have had huge problems with legumes and pea protein, both for my spoo in dog food and for me! Lots of the human protein supplements have had pea protein in then and I have terrible indigestion and bloating. It is so frustrating to find even the most expensive kibbles have legumes in them.

The best luck I have had for him is raw, not even home cooked.
Very frustrating.
 
Discussion starter · #144 ·
I looked at most of the food and treats that I had fed her and tried to see what was common. I wrote a list out the ingredients. I didn’t worry about the “vitamins” added, just the other chemicals and identified foods.

Every time I gave her fish, she would get sick.... these were treats that were fish alone, nothing else - identifying fish as a problem was easy.

Legumes were in all the food and most treats (often lentils, peas or chickpea). I did some research and discovered legumes was high on the list of causing allergies/intolerances. By then I had switched her to chicken and rice. I used to give her some veggies as I was cutting them to prepare dinner (carrots, zucchini, lettuce) and one day I gave her some green beans. She was sick.... I googled and discovered green beans are legumes.

By this time the vet switched us to a prescription kibble, (Hills z/d) which hydrolyzed the protein (broke it up into single amino acids so nothing should provoke a response). It had hydrolyzed Legumes. She improved but not perfect. I decided to home cook so I could completely avoid legumes and got rewarded with no digestive issues. My thinking is the hydrolyzation process may not always be 100% complete especially since I bought a bag that the kibble was burnt and another the kibble wasn’t properly formed. Seemed a little sloppy.

I notice glycerin led to looser stools, but not mucous blood or vomiting and no middle of the night crisis. I avoi glycerin but I don’t put it in the same category of fish and legumes.

I was disgusted by the burnt kibble and decided to stick with home cooking And immediately her BMs were excellent. No more waking up in the middle of the night, no mucous, blood, vomiting bile etc.

My daughter feeds her dog Freshpet and it has peas in it. When we visited Babykins stole a few out of the bowl and got sick. More recently Freshpet has a very similar product, same ingredients but no peas, no other legumes. I use it daily as training treats and she is fine on that. That’s important feedback that she cannot tolerate legumes.

I have tried to find other dog food that didn’t have legumes and I gave up after reading so many ingredient lists.

I was stymied recently when her stool got soft and she had some mucus then vomiting, gas and stomach discomfort where she wants to lie quietly and not play and having diarrhea in the middle of the night. She was on metronidazole for 10 days. Normally she improves in a day or two and remains normal. This time she kept having loose stool and wasn’t back to normal. With in a week she was sick again and is back on another 10 day treatment. Her stool sample was normal, she doesn’t eat poop, lick things or drink water other than what I supply.

I do think it’s important to look at diet, it may not be the answer but there’s a good chance that it is. I hope you find the answer so Peggy is feeling better.

In our case we’re keeping cool getting exercise in the house when it’s so hot And I’m hopeful we’ll get our problem under control.
Thank you so much for sharing that journey. It's such a tedious one, and often just plain overwhelming. I think that written list of ingredients was a very good idea.

Really hoping this round of meds does the trick for Babykins. I've got Peggy on Purina FortiFlora right now, which is the brand of probiotics our vet sells (though I got ours from Chewy). I'm not sure Babykins could tolerate it, though, as it does have more ingredients than probiotics should.
 
Discussion starter · #145 ·
I too have had huge problems with legumes and pea protein, both for my spoo in dog food and for me! Lots of the human protein supplements have had pea protein in then and I have terrible indigestion and bloating. It is so frustrating to find even the most expensive kibbles have legumes in them.

The best luck I have had for him is raw, not even home cooked.
Very frustrating.
It's out of control! They're in EVERYTHING.

And the human equivalent for me is onion or onion powder or "spices." Ack. Just brutal on my stomach, and the effects are cumulative. So the tiniest dose can push me over the edge.
 
I am another who cannot tolerate alliums - one of the reasons I cook mostly from scratch, as ready meals without onion, garlic, leeks etc are few and far between. It is a surprisingly common intolerance - up to 20% of the population by some estimates - yet restaurants and food manufacturers seem completely unaware of it.
 
Discussion starter · #147 ·
I am another who cannot tolerate alliums - one of the reasons I cook mostly from scratch, as ready meals without onion, garlic, leeks etc are few and far between. It is a surprisingly common intolerance - up to 20% of the population by some estimates - yet restaurants and food manufacturers seem completely unaware of it.
Would you believe it took me over 30 years to figure it out?! And not for lack of trying.

It was doing a low-FODMAP diet during a cross-country roadtrip that finally clued me in. What a life changer.

I can handle garlic in small quantities, but I never know when I might be pushing it too far....until I push it too far.
 
And Gluten and wheat! Yikes, you do not have to be celiac to have major reactions including diarrhea 8 times a day and arthritic joint pain! You could not pay me a thousand dollars to eat anything with it in it. I will not even allow anyone to bring it into my house. Not worth it! I have now been gluten free for 11 years and no longer have diarrhea, nor arthritic pain, nor anxiety !

I simply do not understand why Medical Doctors for humans, and Vets for our dear animals do not get it.
If I feed my spoo food or treats with wheat in it I am lucky if he makes it outside before an accident. I am shocked at the 'recipes' for dog food treats that have wheat in them.

Another thing is the artificial chemical vitamins and medications that are supposed to be the same as what nature makes. The word 'natural' is sadly ... bad. OK - off of my high horse.
 
Sounds like a job for Metronidazole to me - you may be of an age to need to use gloves when giving it. I was rather touched when a very young vet insisted on giving me several pairs of surgical gloves along with the prescription - at my age with the menopause many years behind me, I think the possibility of my getting pregnant is so remote that handling a possibly teratogenic tablet is the least of my worries!
So glad to hear that Poppy’s poos are under control.
 
Thank you so much for sharing that journey. It's such a tedious one, and often just plain overwhelming. I think that written list of ingredients was a very good idea.

Really hoping this round of meds does the trick for Babykins. I've got Peggy on Purina FortiFlora right now, which is the brand of probiotics our vet sells (though I got ours from Chewy). I'm not sure Babykins could tolerate it, though, as it does have more ingredients than probiotics should.
About probiotics, the fact that Purina FortiFlora is sold by vets is being mentioned online. Purina’s probiotic is one of the most expensive, but not the best.
I kept reading about commercial probiotics till I felt cross-eyed. Eventually, we decided to give Sasha, st.poodle, a late afternoon snack of 2 tbsps., lactose free kefir, and she seems doing fine on it. We use Green Valley Creamery, which adds Lactase enzyme to the 2% , low-fat milk, kefir. They also add the probiotics to make kefir after milk had been pasteurized, because probiotics don’t withstand the heat of pasteurization. But, just like different people do or don’t tolerate probiotics, so are dogs.

About Peggy’s, what sounds like cyclic diarrhea, the it sounds more and more like possible case of parasitic infection. Giardia, is known to cause the cyclic, watery diarrhea, but without blood or mucus. The reason for the diarrhea being cyclic is because Giardia is shed intermittently. The same reason is making it difficult to detect Giardia on the basic feces flotation test, which may need to be repeated or stool sample can be sent out to the special lab., which has specialized testing. FJM is pretty much on the dot, by saying that it might be time for Metronidazole. Giardia is treated by Metronidazole or fenbendazole. BTW, while Peggy still has episodes of diarrhea, switching her to another kind of food might not be to her benefit. Should she react to new food, it’ll be difficult to differentiate the cause of reaction.
I hope Peggy either recovers on her own or will get help from your vet.
 
Discussion starter · #151 ·
Thanks so much for your insights, Mick. I find some fermented foods and high-quality probiotics extremely hard to tolerate, just personally speaking. So I decided to go the FortiFlora route for a little while. Can't really explain why. A "gut" feeling perhaps? ;) I do typically avoid most products that come from vet's offices, and kefir's on the list of foods I'd like to eventually incorporate into Peggy's diet. I think Peggy will love it.

In other news...
Today marks the first time since this all began that she has completed a 4-day "cycle" without any icky poops. Hooray!

In total, that was four episodes, each four days apart: One extremely minor, but lasting three days; one severe that lasted a full week; then a single whoosh of watery poop at the end of an otherwise normal bowel movement; and one poop with a slimy finish, but not anything that would have been especially noteworthy out of context.

And then a few days later.....she went into heat. Phew! What a month.

I'll be requesting regular giardia screenings from our vet moving forward, and will absolutely treat Peggy if she tests positive. It sounds nearly impossible to eliminate from the environment, though (to avoid reinfection). Will have to do a Poodle Forum search to see how folks have managed this.
 
Thanks so much for your insights, Mick. I find some fermented foods and high-quality probiotics extremely hard to tolerate, just personally speaking. So I decided to go the FortiFlora route for a little while. Can't really explain why. A "gut" feeling perhaps? ;) I do typically avoid most products that come from vet's offices, and kefir's on the list of foods I'd like to eventually incorporate into Peggy's diet. I think Peggy will love it.

In other news...
Today marks the first time since this all began that she has completed a 4-day "cycle" without any icky poops. Hooray!

In total, that was four episodes, each four days apart: One extremely minor, but lasting three days; one severe that lasted a full week; then a single whoosh of watery poop at the end of an otherwise normal bowel movement; and one poop with a slimy finish, but not anything that would have been especially noteworthy out of context.

And then a few days later.....she went into heat. Phew! What a month.

I'll be requesting regular giardia screenings from our vet moving forward, and will absolutely treat Peggy if she tests positive. It sounds nearly impossible to eliminate from the environment, though (to avoid reinfection). Will have to do a Poodle Forum search to see how folks have managed this.
You are Peggy’s mom and your “ gut” feeling is probably the best sensor.
Very glad to hear that Peggy made the first four days without diarrhea. Great news!
Maybe it’s a beginning of feeling better. Though being in heat is probably a big hoop to get through. Hang on, this too shall pass.
 
Discussion starter · #156 ·
If it turns out to be the probiotic, I would really like to know the brand, etc:)
It's basically the McDonald's of canine probiotics: Purina FortiFlora.

But I'm on what you might call the McDonald's of human probiotics (Align) and I've had more success with it than the higher quality brands I've tried.

I've also given Peggy Thorne probiotics, but they recently sold their pet division so I can't vouch for the current formula.
 
Yikes! I can't eat McDonalds, and I never feed Purina. (Haha..... I am gluten free, only eat organic, and feed my dog raw!) However, I can overlook the analogy and know if it is working for your dog, it probably really works :)
Have you continued with it? Let us know if there is no more problem, and if there was no other change :)
 
Discussion starter · #158 ·
Yikes! I can't eat McDonalds, and I never feed Purina. (Haha..... I am gluten free, only eat organic, and feed my dog raw!) However, I can overlook the analogy and know if it is working for your dog, it probably really works :)
Have you continued with it? Let us know if there is no more problem, and if there was no other change :)
She's nearing the end of her first month's supply, and I'll likely taper off over the next month or two. Will update here. I don't like making any abrupt dietary changes if easily avoidable.

With Align, it typically works really well for a few months and then I need to take a break. I thought I was possibly imagining this, but my excellent doctor of integrative medicine said she's heard the same thing about other types of probiotics.
 
Discussion starter · #159 ·
So we've not yet resumed classes, but we did resume our weekly playdate at our trainer's property (which is different from where classes are held). Yesterday was our first day back and today Peggy has vomited three times.

Like the two classes that preceded her diarrhea, there was a dog there that wouldn't stop barking and Peggy was visibly stressed. It was so sharp and loud and persistent; we all took turns shushing him, but within minutes he'd start up again.

The other two dogs couldn't have cared less, but Peggy would walk away and avoid him as best she could, occasionally even air snapping to get him to back off. And her ears were pinned back much of the time like they were in those barky classes.

She's not usually noise sensitive, but the stomach upset just seems like too much of a coincidence.
 
It does seem to echo the pattern of a few weeks ago. I assume you weren't anywhere that could have been treated with chemicals this time? The play date alone may have been exciting enough after so many weeks of enforced social distancing, of course, even without the added stressor of a yappy dog. Would it be possible to set up a one-to-one playdate with a dog she knows and likes at the same venue, and see how she is after that?
 
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