Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 50 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm starting to see trends now and I'm recognizing certain line names here and there. I looked at this breeder, and I see a lot of CH's among other letters, which is GOOD, right? Can anyone give me your opinions on the pedigrees for the puppies in this current litter ? Also, look at their extensive vaccination protocol.... she's definitely done her research and is passionate about her beliefs, but I've never seen anything like it... YET!! Any thoughts??

Bird Patch

Also, at what age would you say it's time for a STUD to retire?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
I would say pedigrees are only part of the story. That's great that these dogs come from well known, championed parents but what is it about these particular dogs that makes them of a quality to breed?

As for the stud, IMO, as long as he is still able to perform and able to produce good sized litters then he can still be used. It's not like it takes a toll on him in the same way as it does on the dam.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I would say pedigrees are only part of the story. That's great that these dogs come from well known, championed parents but what is it about these particular dogs that makes them of a quality to breed?

I want to make sure I understand what you are asking... Why should these two dogs breed if they are not titled themselves? Is that correct?? Very good point... Why have they not proven themselves, right?

I've seen people on here give opinions as to names behind a puppy, in regards to great breeding practices vs. sketchy beliefs, etc. As you know, my #1 concern right now is health, so that's what I was looking at initially.... plus I found their vaccine protocol very interesting. Has anyone had any experience with something like this?

"Through much research and study, our kennel has developed a vaccine protocol that is intended to minimize the occurrence of autoimmune disorders so common to the standard poodle breed.

Given the increase in PARVO outbreak our vaccine protocol has changed dramatically. We now use ONLY NEOTECH products for initial PUPPY immunizations. After experiencing PARVO first-hand and witnessing the devastation that can follow - even on younger pups that in "theory" are protected with their Mama's immunity, we now begin NEOPAR vaccinations at 5 weeks old. NEOPAR is the ONLY vaccine available that is safe to use on puppies as young as 28 days old and is able to override mother's immunity received through her milk. NEOPAR is followed, beginning at 9 weeks of age with NEOVAC, a Distemper/Adenovirus vaccine. This vaccine regime' provides the pup with all the core vaccines necessary up to his/her Rabies & 1 year booster. NO OTHER vaccines (i.e. "Corona", "Lepto" , etc.) are to be administered unless deemed necessary (i.e. Kennel Cough).

When the pups reached a year of age and is ready for his/her booster vaccination, only CONTINUUM is to be used. This is a 3-year "core" vaccine formulated with "killed" virus. No other vaccines will be necessary for a full 36 months. This protocol is to be exactly followed and completed by the buyer. Failure to adhere to our strict schedule, or brand/type recommendation will result in the GENETIC HEALTH GUARANTEE portion of this contract becoming immediately null and void."

Seems somewhat restrictive, yet she certainly believes strongly in it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,537 Posts
I dont really "get" her vaccine protocol. For one, i have Never heard of these brands. Another is that it completely overrides all the research and experts. The vaccine is not sopost to "override" a mothers protection. It is sopost to challange it at certain times, and to also step in when the mothers is finally done. There has been NO link to any vaccines or protocols to prevent auto-immune diseases. Personally, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but i havnt thouroughly looked at the vaccine link (plus it is very late here, so further thoughts later ;))..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,064 Posts
As for the stud dog question, they can be used for a good period of time. Even after a stud dog has passed its not uncommon for breeders to continue using the studs collected semen that is stored.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,064 Posts
I think given the health concern she faced with her litter previously, she has reason to have many concerns and a strict protocol for vacinations. There are actually more breeders then people realize that dont even believe in vacinating due to there own dramatic experiences. I would guess that this lady has done some extensive research due to the horror that puppy went through and for that has her own beliefs and conditions.

Also, in my opinion I dont have a problem with people breeding non champion dogs. Just because a dog has a Ch on the beginning of its name doesnt mean its of breeding quality. Lots of dogs get championed that shouldnt be. If you put a handler on a dog for long enough it eventually get points and ch. Even the owner/handler can do it eventually if they hit enough of the right show's and know what the judge likes. Ive been around to see it happen...unaffortunately!) Another thing, many breeders have a brood bitch/stud dog in there yard that hasnt been shown for one reason or another that's part of the breeding program. I myself, would base my sole decision on the dogs not being CH.

My main concern would be the health testing. The dogs over all look healthy, well cared for and balanced. If she has the records to back up the health testing and you like her dogs then chat with her more and get to know the breeder. Thats just my opinion...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
While her dogs have better pedigrees than most (i.e finished dogs closer up) she pretty much seems like a BYB to me. What does she do with her dogs other than breed?

She has her own untitled stud dogs (cheaper than shipping a bitch and buying stud service from a Champion stud dog) and she is breeding them to her own untitled bitches. Is this really the very best breeding a breeder can do?

She has done a nice job of picking up dogs and bitches that have slipped through the cracks of established breeding programs. However, some of these dogs come from programs that have, as we say, crossed to the dark side. :eek:hwell:

Pagentry which became Millrose was run by a woman named Linda Stone who lived here in Colorado. She had a small breeding program and she showed, but then she had a life change, moved to Kansas and started breeding big time. I think she got busted when she had over 70 dogs and puppies on her place. Same goes for the Osea folks. They were a well established, well respected kennel but lately I've seen their dogs showing up more and more in very questionable, high volume breeding programs. I even contacted them once to ask them if they knew that a puppy mill here in Colorado was advertising that they were breeding Osea lines, but I never heard back from them. Maybe they just aren't careful where their dogs go, but it does not speak well of them.

Other things that make me go :doh: The Osea bitch was bred for the 1st time at age 14 months. I don't see any testing listed for her even though the current litter on the ground is the 2nd for her.

I love that she describes Demi as being a "rare" grey that is not blue and not true black. Yah... we call that a bad black. :rolffleyes:

The whole vaccine protocol is a bit of a run around. They had Parvo and they probably lost puppies which is why they use Neopar. Most good Poodle breeders are using Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol which calls for not giving any vaccines until at least 8 weeks and preferably later. Personally I give all my own Parvo/Distemper shots so that I can use a vaccine that is only Parvo/Distemper and not one that is bundled with Cornona et al. I don't like the fact that she will negate your guarantee if you don't use her special vaccine. What are you going to do if your vet can't or won't get that particular vaccine?

Assuming that her dogs are fully tested, could you do worse? Sure. There are some things to recommend her dogs. However, I don't think this woman really knows very much about poodles. I wonder for example if she knows that the Osea bitch's grandfather was on thyroid meds? (I know because I talked to his owner because I considered using Charlie.)

She certainly will not be a mentor for you in either show or performance. If you are looking to getting into showing for the 1st time, this would not be the breeder to buy from. If you are looking for a moderately priced pet then maybe this would be ok.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Pagentry which became Millrose was run by a woman named Linda Stone who lived here in Colorado. She had a small breeding program and she showed, but then she had a life change, moved to Kansas and started breeding big time. I think she got busted when she had over 70 dogs and puppies on her place. Same goes for the Osea folks. They were a well established, well respected kennel but lately I've seen their dogs showing up more and more in very questionable, high volume breeding programs. I even contacted them once to ask them if they knew that a puppy mill here in Colorado was advertising that they were breeding Osea lines, but I never heard back from them. Maybe they just aren't careful where their dogs go, but it does not speak well of them.

Other things that make me go :doh: The Osea bitch was bred for the 1st time at age 14 months. I don't see any testing listed for her even though the current litter on the ground is the 2nd for her.

I love that she describes Demi as being a "rare" grey that is not blue and not true black. Yah... we call that a bad black. :rolffleyes:

The whole vaccine protocol is a bit of a run around. They had Parvo and they probably lost puppies which is why they use Neopar. Most good Poodle breeders are using Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol which calls for not giving any vaccines until at least 8 weeks and preferably later. Personally I give all my own Parvo/Distemper shots so that I can use a vaccine that is only Parvo/Distemper and not one that is bundled with Cornona et al. I don't like the fact that she will negate your guarantee if you don't use her special vaccine. What are you going to do if your vet can't or won't get that particular vaccine?

Assuming that her dogs are fully tested, could you do worse? Sure. There are some things to recommend her dogs. However, I don't think this woman really knows very much about poodles. I wonder for example if she knows that the Osea bitch's grandfather was on thyroid meds? (I know because I talked to his owner because I considered using Charlie.)

She certainly will not be a mentor for you in either show or performance. If you are looking to getting into showing for the 1st time, this would not be the breeder to buy from. If you are looking for a moderately priced pet then maybe this would be ok.
I can't figure out how to Multi-Quote, but you guys have given a lot of information!

"Yah... we call that a bad black." This made me laugh outloud! I did notice that the bitch was bred last year at a young age. I too had trouble finding health tests and if I do look into speaking with her, you know that would be top on my list of requirements from both parents. I was confused because I saw that she was PennHIP .40 %... I thought it was either .4 or 40%... which of course there's a BIG difference there, right? I would have to look into the NEOTECH a LOT more, because good grief~ 5 weeks sure seem awfully young!! But she is adamant about it... Yes, I would ask her many questions:)

Switching gears, I just saw that Great Lakes Poodle Club is having their 66th Annual Specialty Show this weekend in Chicago! How awesome would that be to go observe! Does anyone know, can just "anyone" go as a spectator? How awesome would that be to go and get my feet wet!! :whoo:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,145 Posts
She certainly will not be a mentor for you in either show or performance. If you are looking to getting into showing for the 1st time, this would not be the breeder to buy from. If you are looking for a moderately priced pet then maybe this would be ok.
How much are their puppies ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,145 Posts
I Haven't inquired yet... nothing is posted on the site. I'll let you know what I find out though.
Yes please post and let us know. If this breeder is charging 1500 I would look else where because she is not putting work into the dogs to even charge someone that much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,064 Posts
I agree if she is charging 1500.00 I would look else where. You can pick up a show potential puppy out of ch parents for $1500.00 from a experienced breeder.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,972 Posts
You should definitely check out the show! I went to my first show last weekend and it was awesome. I posted some pics and a video, if you want to check them out. It was kind of overwhelming at first, but you get the hang of things after a while. You can check out Onofrio.com for info on the show. I actually have a good lead on my future pup b/c of going to the show.

I would love to hear if any one knows something about Graphic too, btw.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
You should definitely check out the show! I went to my first show last weekend and it was awesome. I posted some pics and a video, if you want to check them out. It was kind of overwhelming at first, but you get the hang of things after a while. You can check out Onofrio.com for info on the show. I actually have a good lead on my future pup b/c of going to the show.

I would love to hear if any one knows something about Graphic too, btw.
Thanks Harley_Chik! I'll check out your video... I think this is the first that I've seen of someone pricing Males different than Females. I know that pricing based on color is frowned upon (and agreed), but what about the sex of the dogs?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Thanks Harley_Chik! I'll check out your video... I think this is the first that I've seen of someone pricing Males different than Females. I know that pricing based on color is frowned upon (and agreed), but what about the sex of the dogs?
I don't like pricing based on sex. Breeders who price that way do it because puppy buyers usually prefer girls and boys can be harder to sell. I just think if the pups come from the same litter then they are presumably all of a similar quality. It's up to breeders to educate buyers on why they should be looking for a pup that has the right personality for them, rather than focusing only on sex.

For what it's worth, I have yet to meet a breeder who I would consider going to who has differing prices for their pups. They usually just say the price is $x amount and that's it, there's no differing variables based on sex, colour or anything else.

Oh and I would definitely go to the show! It's a great way to meet breed enthusiasts and see some beautiful dogs in person. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,972 Posts
That's interesting! I know w/ most toy breeds it's perfectly acceptable to charge less for males b/c everyone wants a female. I also know a lot of breeders (in other breeds) have one price for pet quality and another for show quality. It's not a hand over the cash, get full registration thing, you usually enter a co-ownership and prove to the breeder you're commited to showing. I do tend to agree that it shouldn't matter but I understand why they do it. I'm interested to hear more about Poodle breeders.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,645 Posts
I think co-owning a dog is smart for both people. Especially if it's a show prospect the breeder can get the dog back or send it out for showing if they want. Plus they are in closer contact with this specific puppy and can be more active in it's life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
I also know a lot of breeders (in other breeds) have one price for pet quality and another for show quality. It's not a hand over the cash, get full registration thing, you usually enter a co-ownership and prove to the breeder you're commited to showing.
See, that can be a problem too. Identifying the pet from show quality pups at 8 to 10 weeks can be very difficult. Lots of pups who end up being show quality end up in pet homes and vice versa. So if the breeder is going to charge more for show quality, are they going to refund the money if the bite goes off or any of the other things that turn a show prospect into a non show prospect pup happen? The only reason to charge more for a show prospect (IMO) is if the new owner plans to breed. If that's the case, co-ownership so you have some say in the breeding and either a puppy back or the price of a puppy back is the way to go!

As for the sex pricing, if the breeder looked great except for that one issue then I would go with them. But as I say, none of the breeders who fit my criteria in other ways that I have spoken to (and there's lots of them :)) have priced their pups differently on sex. Having said that, price is usually the last thing I ask about, so maybe with some I cut them off the list before I found out about their different pricing!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
I think co-owning a dog is smart for both people. Especially if it's a show prospect the breeder can get the dog back or send it out for showing if they want. Plus they are in closer contact with this specific puppy and can be more active in it's life.
Agreed, we co-owned two of the pups out of the breeding of one of our PWD litters. We didn't charge any more for the pup, our name just went on the registration along with the new owner's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I think co-owning a dog is smart for both people. Especially if it's a show prospect the breeder can get the dog back or send it out for showing if they want. Plus they are in closer contact with this specific puppy and can be more active in it's life.
(This is going to sound very naive, but I'm being totally serious)
Co-owning... Do you mean that if the breeder has agreed to co-own a puppy, they could take your puppy (as I'm sure it's agreed upon) to train/show the puppy if they want? Like you are "sharing" it? I've seen somewhere on here someone said, "My baby has gone away to "college"" and they have been away for a couple of months.... can someone explain this? Because I cannot imagine falling in love with my baby and then having them be taken away :( even if it's temporary. Or is this totally separate from the co-owning situation?
 
1 - 20 of 50 Posts
Top