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They do look legit. Health testing, home raised “biosensor” training, yet not one of their stud dogs has ever achieved any conformation or performance titles. Keep looking.
 

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If you tell us where you are located, then maybe someone here knows of reputable breeders near you. Best of luck with your search.
 

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This may really surprise some of y'all, but I wouldn't reject this breeder. If you like the look of the parents, even though they don't conform to the show standard, they are health tested with good results, and they seem to be lovingly raised.
 

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They do look legit. Health testing, home raised “biosensor” training, yet not one of their stud dogs has ever achieved any conformation or performance titles. Keep looking.
From my study of poodle pedigrees, it seems like 90% or more of breeding poodles have no titles. After seeing a breeder list all the champions in one of her dogs’ pedigrees, and recognizing the pedigree, I realized that she had skipped most of the names and just counted the few with titles. An example, I’m looking at an apricot poodle born last year where the first champion in one particular line I followed is 14 generations back, born in 1967. And that line runs through the Palmeres red standard line. In fact red standards didn’t win a single championship for a number of years, and even now are rare.

Of course, it may be that I’m just not paying any attention to the black and white show poodle lines that are high percentage Wycliffe. Those lines probably have a lot more titled dogs in them. But I would hesitate to breed such a poodle.

I would probably try for some titles with my dogs, if I knew of any way to do it short of traveling the country, which I can’t afford at this point. There are no shows or much of anything near where I live. With nothing local going on, and nobody I know involved, it’s hard to get started. And then I’ve heard the judges discriminate against colored poodles and owner-handled dogs, and you have to cheat in the grooming department to win because everybody else does too.

In short, I wouldn’t rule out a breeder just because they don’t have titles on their dogs.
 

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I looked at the site and being new in st. poodles I really cannot say too much. Looking for a pet puppy only I personally would not rule out a hobby breeder. She advertises that she is a hobby breeder only and it appears she has all the testing done. I would want to go there though and actually see where she keeps the dogs, and I would want a copy of the health testing. To me it looks like she is trying to do it right but you just can't trust web sites these days. A friend of mine was looking for another breed and saw a fabulous web site, she drove tot he area as it wasn't that far from her and was astonished, it was terrible, there were kennels in back of property where many dogs were kept, and it was not at all clean. The web site was great though. So be sure to check further.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thank you guys for your great opinions. I would definitely drive to check out whichever breeder I choose. I'm located in eastern Kentucky, but I'm willing to drive for the right breeder/puppy. I appreciate all the insight!
 

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They do their health testing which is a great start. But they also say all of their breeding dogs go through extensive genetic, temperament and body structure testing. However, who is doing the testing? In whose opinion are the dogs she is breeding worthy of breeding? Hers? She has also not posted pedigrees so you could see what lines the dogs come from. In the absence of any titles, either breed or performance, on any of the dogs, which would serve to back up her claims, I would pass. You can find puppies from health tested parents with titles.
 
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From my study of poodle pedigrees, it seems like 90% or more of breeding poodles have no titles. After seeing a breeder list all the champions in one of her dogs’ pedigrees, and recognizing the pedigree, I realized that she had skipped most of the names and just counted the few with titles. An example, I’m looking at an apricot poodle born last year where the first champion in one particular line I followed is 14 generations back, born in 1967. And that line runs through the Palmeres red standard line. In fact red standards didn’t win a single championship for a number of years, and even now are rare.

Of course, it may be that I’m just not paying any attention to the black and white show poodle lines that are high percentage Wycliffe. Those lines probably have a lot more titled dogs in them. But I would hesitate to breed such a poodle.
It has not been all that long since apricot standard poodles became competitive in the conformation ring. I can even remember when silver standards were not competitive. Even today the majority of wins go to creams, then to blacks. When people breed for a particular color, other factors tend to fall behind. The blacks and creams have decades of work to improve the overall dog behind them that the other colors simply do not have.
 

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I agree as long as the dog is health tested, raised in a clean and attentive atmosphere I would not worry about titles or if a breeder shows, as an example, none of my dogs had titles except for Sage's parents and grandparents, she no different from the others except she is skittish. I am only looking for a pet and health dog. I read many people here get rescues and they turn out fine as a pet.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thank you guys! I appreciate al the very helpful info. I am not opposed to any color sooo as long as they're healthy. I will definitely check out the breeders you guys recommend!
 

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Poodleobsessed, this is my take.

Hopper's poodles list five breeding Spoos on their Sires & Dams page.
On OFA, they only have two of those dogs listed. Those results are for hips and elbows only (link).

Not all breeders upload everything or anything on OFA, often b/c of the expense. This is not a big deal if they can show you the test results for DNA and other tests. If one of the pups is from Maggie, specifically ask to see her DNA eye lab test b/c she's the only one of their dogs who does not have this listed. If she's only a PRA carrier and bred to a non-carrier, statistically half of the pups will be too. Again, not a big deal since carriers don't develop PRA, but if you plan to breed your puppy you'll have to be absolutely sure that a stud dog is not a carrier.

Scooterscout99 recommended the Cosmic poodles. Their website says OFA and CHIC. The CHIC part means those dogs listed have passed the recommended tests. If both sire and dam are CHIC, they'll be clear of all the DNA lab tests.

When you look at the OFA links to their poodles, you'll see what full testing looks like when uploaded there, compared to Hopper's. If you like the color, they look like a really good bet.

Mfmst listed the Mount Bethel poodles. As of today, their site domain may have expired, but they're on FB (link). On their FB, they also linked to poodledata (here) and have the best pedigrees in terms of champion ancestry, just fantastic, for the pup they advertised today. On the FB Oct 10th entry, they say they're expecting another litter around Dec 12th, and the mother is just beautiful. Somewhere on FB they also mentioned OFA so ask them for the link.

I lean very heavily toward Mount Bethel, followed by Cosmic if you like parti-colors. I'd skip over Hopper only because a championship pedigree excites me for a variety of reasons, such as the puppy will usually have good to great body structure that meets or comes very close to meeting the standard for poodles, and I can show off to my family and friends. It's actually kind of silly because nearly all dogs give love and companionship, from the funny looking mutt in the shelter to the #1 poodle in any give year. One of my best dogs ever was medium-small retriever mix, my heart was a toy poodle and I haven't a clue what his pedigree was and couldn't care less. My current dog has a hot shot pedigree and is beautiful, but frankly, love comes in all packages.

My guess is that you'll pay more for the latter two breeders because all the activities their owners have invested, along with careful breeding strategies (especially Bethel) and this will or should increase the price.

If all three breeders do robust testing, and you strictly want a pet, any of them are probably fine.
 

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Lily is from a hobby breeder (no longer working), but her sire is a champion and her dam has OFA testing and such clearances as are appropriate for a standard. Her dam's sire also is a champion. Three generation pedigrees of both parents were available to me before picking her up as were the OFA and other test results. So I don't object to hobby breeding, but I do look for one who has appropriate and external evidence of the soundness and temperament of the lines.


Javelin's breeders show to titles with many of their dogs. Their foundation dogs are Ale Kai. Miki is Javelin's grandfather. Additionally his breeders have done other dog sports including obedience and tracking. Three generation pedigrees and health and OFA results were made available early in my discussion about his litter. Not all of that information was on the breeder website, but it was provided right away when I asked for it.


For the original breeder asked about here and the others suggested along the way I would want pedigrees, OFA/CHIC numbers and the ability to see results of all of the appropriate testing and would consider a pup from a breeder who produced well structured puppies even if they didn't do a lot of showing or sports. Then again I am fortunate to be in an area where I can find breeders who fit all of my criteria, not just most of them.
 
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I stumbled on Mount Bethel but it would absolutely be on my list. Dobbs vaccination protocol, Volhard testing, participation with samples in many poodle health studies, which is a high standard all alone. It isn’t all about CH parents, but it is all about betterment of the breed. Good luck with your search!
 

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Yes, I agree with the above (Catherine and Mfmst), and Poodleobsessed, if you plan to do any breeding yourself, please go with a poodle that has really great lines in conformation championships and/or sports titles. Both are icing on the cake.

The #1 goal of the best breeders, ideally, is to uphold the standard of the breed and improve upon it where possible.
 
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