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Discussion Starter #1
I have ALWAYS loved Frenchies Poodles

http://web.mac.com/frenchiesgroomery/standardpartipoodles/WELCOME.html

If I ever planned on getting a parti or phantom, I would probably look towards them first. I admire their site and their dogs, and they're but a short drive south of where I'm at. You can view the testing certificates of the dogs on the Health Testing, and their shows in the showdown area.

I've emailed her about showing her dogs, and she mentioned that they're not huge into showing, and that they'd rather take their dogs hiking, hunting, and camping.

From what I've seen from stalking the site for a few months now, they haven't bred any of their dogs back to back, and never have more than one litter on the ground at a time.
 

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Pretty dogs, pretty website. I would question why most of their dogs only have prelim OFA results (even those who are over the age of 2). It's my understanding that prelims should be replaced by certified results once the dog is over the age of 2.

Their current litter on the ground was fathered by a dog who is younger than 2 and had "fair" hips in prelim. The mother of that litter is over the age of 2 and also has "fair" hips in prelim. Based on this info alone, I would ask serious questions about the health testing that is completed on their breeding stock.
 

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This is a perfect example of why buyers need to educate themselves about poodles.

These people only have "prelim" hip tests on their dogs. They never went back after age two and had an official OFA hip evaluation done. My personal favorite is a vet's hand written evaluation on Lola's hips. What the heck is that? I didn't know that a country vet was suddenly an expert on orthopedic issues (OFA has 3 specialists independently evaluate xrays).

If a Poodle is Prelimed fair at 6 and 7 months (as were the dam and sire of their current litter), there is a darn good chance that those poodle may actually test dysplastic at age 2.

Even if these poodles managed to keep their Fair hip rating, why would a breeder ever breed a Fair to a Fair? How could that possibly be the best breeding they could do?
 

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My personal favorite is a vet's hand written evaluation on Lola's hips. What the heck is that? I didn't know that a country vet was suddenly an expert on orthopedic issues (OFA has 3 specialists independently evaluate xrays).
Yes... That's the first time I've ever seen a note like that used as evidence of health testing. And it looks like she has had at least one litter (before the age of 1), with that note as evidence of her hip status.

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/offspring.asp?ID=357017
 

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It's as Cbrand said. They had the dogs' hips assessed before the age of 2, but never had them officially certified after the age of 2. The reason the OFA will not certify a dog's hips until age 2 is because the dog is still considered to be growing up until that point - their hips could still change. So the prelims are meant to help breeder's identify problems early on, so they could decide to spay or neuter a dog that has problem hips before putting in all the work of getting the dog ready for breeding. As far as I understand it, prelims are not meant to replace official OFA certification.

A fair prelim result is a concern, because a dog who prelims fair could certify at the age of 2 as dysplastic. Therefore most breeders will not breed a dog who prelims fair until they have been officially certified. It's irresponsible to breed a dysplastic dog or a dog who might be dysplastic. Some breeders will breed dogs who certify good or excellent before the age of 2 as this certification is less likely to change, although there's other reasons breeding before this age is controversial (like physical and mental maturity of the breeding pair.)

Here's a link with more info:

http://www.offa.org/hipprelim.html
 

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Just a bit more info on OFA. The scale of "normal" hip rating is Excellent, Good and Fair. If a dog is rated at any of these levels at the age of 2, they are considered certified and will be given an OFA number. If they do not reach the "fair" rating then they are considered mildly to severely dysplastic and will not be given an OFA number.

An OFA number looks like this: PO-15019F25M-PI. Every dog who has been certified by the OFA as normal will have a number like this.

From the OFA website, what this number means is:

PO = Poodle
15019 = Numerical attribute given to every member of the breed certified normal (so this is the 15,019th poodle to be certified as normal)
F = Fair (G for Good, E for Excellent)
25 = Age in months when testing was done
M = Male (Female = F)
PI/ VPI = Indicates the animal has been permanently identified by a tattoo or microchip

If a breeder is not able to supply a number in the format above, then that dog has not been OFA certified after the age of 2. Prelim'd dogs will not have a number in this format (and will not be listed in the OFA database at www.offa.org)

http://www.offa.org/numberkey.html
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Wow Cd, I am TOTALLY keeping that post up for reference when I see that number. Very useful! ^^

What's the average price to get hips tested? I'm going to be doing field work with my poodles and I'm not sure if the extra work will wear their joints out more, so I want to know how much I can work them.

If that even applies?
 

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Oh, Cbrand, I've got my heart set on solids at the moment. I already have a breeder by mouth that I'm going to be getting a puppy from next spring/early summer. I'm a bit impatient at the moment.. but I'm just taking it one day at a time.

The way I talk about it, you'd think I'd already have a puppy! I swear my friends are all sick over hearing about poodles, lol.

I'm just sucking all the information in right now, there's a lot I've learned about breed standard from just reading, lurking, and asking questions here.
 

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I've talked with them via email about a litter they had earlier this year and I was...dissapointed.

All of their dogs have Kit-Sue, Cherdon and some TyTan's in the blood line and Kit-Sues & Cherdons are high volume breeders and Tytan's bred healvy for a few yeras and then droped off the earth.

I agree that they should have had the dogs hips done agian and not have bred a lot of the dogs they have bred.

If you search Frenchies there are a lot of dogs she has bred and then sold pr traded.

I agree you should look elsewhere.
 

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I just wanted to say that Leslie is a very nice person and when I emailed with her she was quite plesent. She has healthy dogs and healthy puppies & seams like they care very much about their dogs. She is one of the only non show Parti breeders that I consider on the right road. I just do not care for the lines her dogs are from.

Anyway..just thought I'd clear up my last post as it was kind of vauge lol
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Okay, lol thanks for the clarification, PP.

I'm sure if I asked, she might provide updated records on her dogs prelim hips. I've emailed her too, and she's very willing to answer any questions and very friendly.
 

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Okay, lol thanks for the clarification, PP.

I'm sure if I asked, she might provide updated records on her dogs prelim hips. I've emailed her too, and she's very willing to answer any questions and very friendly.
Just one thing to add on that... If the dogs aren't listed at www.offa.org, then the prelims haven't been updated. You can search the kennel name to see any dogs that have been officially certified. :)
 

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I've talked with them via email about a litter they had earlier this year and I was...dissapointed.

All of their dogs have Kit-Sue, Cherdon and some TyTan's in the blood line and Kit-Sues & Cherdons are high volume breeders and Tytan's bred healvy for a few yeras and then droped off the earth.

I agree that they should have had the dogs hips done agian and not have bred a lot of the dogs they have bred.

If you search Frenchies there are a lot of dogs she has bred and then sold pr traded.

I agree you should look elsewhere.
Just to address the comment about Breeders keeping or petting out dogs.
Breeders wishing to keep their dogs/poodles to a managable number
and yet wish to keep pups they produce AND breed to improve the breed and their program ... CAN"T physically KEEP every dog they own. Breeders can not operate the same way a Pet person does, as they do not have the same goals in mind.

I frankly admire breeders that have chosen to spay/neuter and retire a breeding dog to enjoy a pet home where they will live out their lives in total luxery of being the one and only. AND that family get a totally trained and socialized and superior healthy dog (all the health testing done and tiles done) for free or at a substantially discounted price.

Some other breeders will decide that a breeding dog has done all they can for "their" program but would really contribute or enhance another's breeding program...

These are choices that real breeders must make as they are breeding to improve not repeat for profit.

Just my .o2.

As for high number of pups or litters produced...
I do have to chuckle as some of the "breeders" that have been reccomended on here, house/kennel over 30 dogs and breed just as many litters a year.
Even top show poodle breeders have produced a great number of pups...difference between reputable and not reputable is the health of the dogs and the pups produced and why they do it and the goals involved...
 

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I know about petting out retired dogs and see nothing wrong with letting go of an animal to a pet home if its not right for your breeding program or retired but it just rubs me the wrong way when its done over and over in a short amount of time.
 

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Just to address the comment about Breeders keeping or petting out dogs.
Breeders wishing to keep their dogs/poodles to a managable number
and yet wish to keep pups they produce AND breed to improve the breed and their program ... CAN"T physically KEEP every dog they own. Breeders can not operate the same way a Pet person does, as they do not have the same goals in mind.

I frankly admire breeders that have chosen to spay/neuter and retire a breeding dog to enjoy a pet home where they will live out their lives in total luxery of being the one and only. AND that family get a totally trained and socialized and superior healthy dog (all the health testing done and tiles done) for free or at a substantially discounted price.

Some other breeders will decide that a breeding dog has done all they can for "their" program but would really contribute or enhance another's breeding program...

These are choices that real breeders must make as they are breeding to improve not repeat for profit.

Just my .o2.

As for high number of pups or litters produced...
I do have to chuckle as some of the "breeders" that have been reccomended on here, house/kennel over 30 dogs and breed just as many litters a year.
Even top show poodle breeders have produced a great number of pups...difference between reputable and not reputable is the health of the dogs and the pups produced and why they do it and the goals involved...
Laura....is that you again? Your diatribes sure sound like Bijou, and you pop on periodically like Bijou, your writing style is like Bijou and since you have come on here as tinypoodles, you have posted no info about yourself nor have you answered anyones questions about your web site address or the kennel name you bred under. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I will eat my shirt if this is not you again, under a new name, posting from your work computer so the IP address is different.
 

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You know I'm getting annoyed with the constant mention of "I do have to chuckle as some of the "breeders" that have been reccomended on here, house/kennel over 30 dogs and breed just as many litters a year." If you know something please share it or keep the whole thing to yourself. That is Bijou's favorite argument btw.
 
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