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Discussion Starter #1
Ok so I found a few pics of Eli's dam and sire. They aren't the best pics but you can get an idea of how blue his dam is. I consider her a "True Blue" . Her color seems very rich and deep. The creme dog is his sire.

I had always thougt Eli was going to be black but after I have read more Im unsure. Eli had the brown highlights when he was younger but when I cut him down he was black again. I was told that the sun will make his hair get a brownish tint but he even had the brownish tint on hair underneath is paws.
I have been noticing a lot of whitish guard hair's coming in through his body and even his muzzle now.

So what does everyone else think? Eli does have Jet black dogs behind his mother's pedigree. Any idea's? Oh and Eli is almost 15 months now.
 

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Here is a picture of my Gaby,who is now over the Rainbow bridge.
As a puppy she was jet black,except for her face,which was dark grey.
It took her almost 3 years to fade to a nice blue.
First signs were...feathering around the eyes and lower part of her 'pants'.

 

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So can a good breeder always tell if a puppy will be a blue or black? Max was sold to us as black but I see some brown tones and some isolated white hairs. That makes me wonder if he might not be a true black.
 

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I think Eli is a black. He looks darker at an older age than Wrigley does and Wriggs is just 16 weeks.
I don't think it is a good or bad breeder thing - I just think some people read more about this subject than others. My breeder does all the health testing, has a wonderful 5 year guarantee, and raises all dogs in her home. So she passes those criteria with flying colors! But she said Wrigley was a black. So, I wonder if she has done much reading on blues. But I definitely don't think she was trying to be misleading.
 

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Well here is what little I know about genetics and DO NOT TAKE THIS AS 100% fact...its been a few yrs since freshman college genetics.

Solid Black coloring comes in 2 forms... BB and Bb...so a true black would have to be either BB or Bb. So if you we sold a true black it "should HAVE" to come from 2 black parents. To get a blue from 2 black parents is not unusual...it is your bb you get from breeding 2 Bb blacks together. Once you take said bb and breed it will anything other than BB you dilute the BB even more and get your silvers.

I know that other colors are what are called co-dominant masking genes...in other words sometimes if 2 parents have a hidden gene color the 2 will get together and that color will "mask" the other color. This is how you get an odd white puppy in a group of mostly one or 2 NOT white puppies. I don't know if Poodle whites work like that, but I do know so breeds do...you start getting all white pups in your litters when you take that masking gene and "work" with it. So if you take 2 dogs that are white or factored for white, breed them together...then you get either all white or mostly white litters.

So another thing I have heard from alot of breeders is about the white hair thing...but to me it makes sense. If you have a dog that is supposed to be black, and it starts growing hairs that are white or significantly lighter than the normal coat color...there has to be a fading gene in them somewhere, right?

Like my Raven has the brownish tones to her hair, but she has NO white hairs anywhere. Her parents were both "black" but her mother looked more brownish to me than her father. So I am thinking that Raven is a Bb to a BB or a Bb to Bb breeding.

That means she very well could be a bb which would make her a blue, even without the white hairs or the fact she was supposed to be black born with black toenails. I mean I trust the breeder, but I still think it is very possible my black girl is a blue. I think she will be one of the dark blues, when I shave her face it still looks black, not silver and not faded near the nose...but she is only 8 months old. I know that some say 2 yrs old for a blue, but I really think it might take longer to start really showing unless stood next to a nice dark black dog.

Just my random thoughts on the subject...I have forgot more than I remember about genetics. I did do alot of reserch on Doberman colors for a high school project and I know that it takes certain colors to make others, and that "factoring" for different colors plays a lot into it.

I also know that you cannot go by the color that someone rights down on a piece of paper...human error or greed plays into that unfortunately.
 

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I also wanted to pint out that white hairs can be caused at the site of scarring...so even the white hair thing isn't 100% accurate sometimes!
 

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I don't want to come across as being snarky or anything but there are still quite a number of just bad blacks. It doesn't make them blue. They're obviously not bad dogs but the coat is not true jet black.

My understanding is that a blue starts changing almost straight away and takes 2 - 3 years to reach his true colour and stop fading. A black is not going to suddenly start changing at 12 - 18 months and become blue, he is still black.

A breeder who is breeding for silver or blue will know what to look for and should be able to tell by the time the pup is 6 weeks if they are blue, black or silver. Because a lot of breeders breed for black you get the occassional true blue but predominantly they are black just with varying shades, some breeders call it smokey black which is not a colour it just means they won't be jet black.
 

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Nope...that is what I really think since Raven is already 8 months old...not blue...just a brownish tinted black. I do think some breeders out there are selling blues as blacks and vs versa. I am sure some simply don't know, and some are doing it for deceiving purposes...but I think that if you think a puppy is not going to stay its puppy color...then you should tell the new owner. If they want a black puppy and it might not be black, why not tell them?

I personally am one of the true believers that color should be one of the last things you look at when looking at any dog that you are thinking of adding to your family...they are all beautiful in their own ways.

My hubby wanted a black...his exact words were black with no white...well that is what color she "looked" when I put the deposit down. I just wanted the more out-going of the black girls, and the breeder said all 3 girls were all black...this is the girl she chose for me.

She isn't as dark as some blacks, but I kind of like the chocolately brown high-lights she has!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Now I hear things from breeder's such as, dark poodles such as black and brown can get tinted or lighten just like it does on our own hair.
Also that black Poodles get guard hairs too that are whitish in color. Eli is pretty darn dark but after reading what Bears dad said about when Bear turned blue, it made me wonder. Im hoping to see some 1yr pics of bear then we can see if he indeed looked completely black or was there faint signs.

Again, if there is any tinted brown area'a on Eli, the moment I cut him down he is completely black again. Right now the only lightly tinted area's I see is just around is nose (barely) and around the rims of his eyes (barely). This is the first time he has ever had that on his face. I noticed the brown tint when he was about 6-8 months and that was mostly on his body not is face at all. So maybe it really is the sun? The breeder that bred his mother, which is Karen at Sisco's Distinctive Poodles asked me if Eli started getting guard hairs yet? She says most pluck them out of there black dogs but they are normal.

I have to wonder how accurate some of these sites are about what they know about Poodle colors. Plus, most of these breeder's that show black Poodles dye the dogs hair black. What does that say? Most blacks aren't as deep as you'd think.
 

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Eli's mother is gorgeous! that is really blue - I dont' know what to think about him - he seems really black in the avatar - time for more close ups of him lol
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I just finished reading about Poodle shampoo's for black coats and they all say they are formulated to take the red out of black coats. They also mentioned the red is caused by the sun bleaching the hair. So, I guess its exactly what I thought in the beginning. Eli is a typical black Poodle that gets some guard hairs and slight sun bleaching to his black coat.

I was looking at the Plush Puppy products and Chris Christensen systems. Haven't got any further then that. Still researching good Poodle products and which to get....hmmmm??
 

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When I started looking for a dog I wanted a red dog. I couldnt get an Irish Setter because of allergies lol - I wanted a red poodle that I coudl name Ginger. She was very red when a puppy - now sometimes she looks faded and since her coat is long I see a lot of white hairs. But when she is cut down she is red again. Go figure!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
When I started looking for a dog I wanted a red dog. I couldnt get an Irish Setter because of allergies lol - I wanted a red poodle that I coudl name Ginger. She was very red when a puppy - now sometimes she looks faded and since her coat is long I see a lot of white hairs. But when she is cut down she is red again. Go figure!
One thing that Ive found that really makes a difference and intensifies the coat color are shampoo's that are formulated for specific coat colors. They make shampoo's for red/apricot dogs, white/cremes and blacks. Eli looks Jet black after I bathe him in black formulated shampoo. (major difference)

You may want to ask your groomer if she carries a shampoo that will intensify Ginger's coat. If not, is she open to letting you get your own and having her bathe Ginger in your shampoo. I think you will see a difference in Ginger's coat immediately with a red/apricot shampoo.
 
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