Hans is a lot like Peeves, I think - ok for a decent variety of proteins but reactive to a lot of the "other stuff." For what it's worth, the Canine Caviar Open Sky is duck based, and no peas (it has chickpeas but according to Dr. Dodds those are usually fine for dogs that have issues with peas/lentils).

I think the supplements you'll need will depend on exactly what's in the food. If you can, I would suggest including organ meats in your recipe...that will likely cut down on supplements you'll need. You will most likely have to supplement calcium if you aren't feeding bone. I've heard of using eggshells, washed, dried, and ground in a coffee grinder and I also think you can buy powdered bone for that purpose...I haven't personally used either. I have also been supplementing Omega 3 and vitamin E.

What I do to figure out portion sizes when Hans is eating my homemade concoctions is enter all the ingredients into a website that figures the nutritional info for human recipes. I divide the total calories by total weight in ounces (I usually make big batches and freeze). I know roughly how many calories per day Hans needs, so I just figure out how many ounces to feed per meal that way.

My latest idea, since Hans will continue to eat the few kibbles he can have in combination with my homemade food (either raw or cooked) is to get this software I found called Pet Diet Designer. Basically it looks like you create recipes, it figures out the nutrient and calorie content and compares it to the recommended amounts so you can see what might need to be added. I am just paranoid about Hans missing some important nutrient because he's eating homemade food, and my vet is not a fan of anything other than commercial food so she's no help.

I'm just waiting until my new computer arrives next week to get the software, but I'll let you know how it works. I'd be happy to enter your homemade recipe in there too (assuming it works like it should), if you want, so you can see what all the nutrient levels come out to.

I know some raw feeders who feed one meal per day....I can't get Hans to eat a whole day's worth of food at once so I do two meals - 630am and 5pm or so. If they are all ok with wheat, I don't see why you couldn't use bulgur wheat.

 

I like the canine caviar a lot for a pea free option. The Free Spirit and Open Meadow and Open Sky are all pea free. The only thing that gives me pause is that fat is listed as the third or so ingredient in each of their pea-free formulas and there was that study that found chicken fat as the third ingredient being a risk factor...I know better than to put much weight in that but...so far I have been superstitious.

Have you looked at Grandma Lucy's? Another one to consider is Sportdogfood. I have fed both GL's and SDF. Check out the Elite line. Complete Dog Food for Highly Active Dogs | SportDogFood.com

 

CM....There's a good food called "Great Life Grain Free" that is pea free and the oil is way down at the bottom of the ingredient list too! Thought of you when I read the Ingredients!

 

Thank you both for your thoughtful replies. Firestorm will that software work on a Mac? If you find you like it, I might consider it too, since then I would be able to recalculate as often as I like.

One other thing I was a little reluctant in terms of is the emphasis on alkaline diet with the Canine Caviar. Lily already has a higher than normal urine pH, so I am not sure how that would work for her.

CM thanks for those other food suggestions. I will look them over.

 

Unfortunately they don't have a Mac version yet. All my personal computers are macs but our business computers are PCs. I'm going to use it on one of those, once we get the new ones (we were over due for an upgrade, so we took advantage of a Black Friday/cyber Monday deal).

 

Honest Kitchen makes a Kindly Dehydrated Dog Food Base, which I believe nifty incorporated into Dulcie's meals to cover the vitamins and minerals.

 

Mfmst Honest Kitchen choices that I've looked at all have something in them that is off the list! I can find foods that will work either for both poodles, or both boys, but so far nothing for all three.

I am still thinking I will either cook for them or perhaps find something for the poodles and something different for Peeves alone. I plan to check with some local butchers today to see what kind of pricing I can get on a volume purchase.

 

Catherine, if you are moving away from commercial dog food, what is the benefit of cooking for them vs going raw? I do NOT have a scientific mind like you, or many others here, but I find the food discussions so interesting!

 

My main goal is to get rid of the foods that they have intolerances/sensitivities to. I have had zero luck on finding a commercial food that is limited enough in ingredients like peas, pearl millet, barley and corn to work for all of them. It would be much easier when I travel and/or leave the dogs in someone else's care if they all ate the same thing.

The microbiologist in me recognizes that dogs are not terribly susceptible to Salmonella and the like but knows we are, and there are some folks in our family that are a little more vulnerable based on immune status. So the desire to cook is in part fueled by consideration of human concerns.

 

There are multiple members of my raw feeding group that have household members with immune deficiency of some kind. They take some precautions but still feed raw. Basically all meat is handled the same way you would when cooking for yourself, plus they make sure any surface where the dog eats is cleaned and the dog's face and paws are wipe down after eating. I feed Aaah outside almost exclusively unless there's a blizzard or thunderstorm, then she eats in her crate and I wipe down her Primo Pad after eating. When my 5 month old nieces are over, I also wipe her feet and face and she is not allowed to lick them (or anyone else, because yuck, dog spit). The raw feeders I know who show or compete in dog sports either take frozen stuff or dehydrated/freeze dried food when traveling.

I know raw won't work for every person, but it sounds like DIY raw might be the easiest way for you to accomodate everyone's needs since you can just avoid feeding what they're sensitive to. Prey model automatically takes care of all the grains/vegetables/legumes, and even with BARF you can avoid all the things you listed.

 

My dogs eat half raw. So, one frozen patty of raw for breakfast (Stella & Chewy's). It's a commercial product which means its High Pressure Pasteurized. Risk of illness is pretty low. Much easier than home cooked because it's already prepared. I thaw out about 6 patties at a time (2 days worth).

 

It's very expensive, but check out Ziwipeak as a base. It has a very short list of ingredients, and no grains or legumes at all.

 

I wish I could afford Ziwipeak. It would be ideal, but at over $300 for an 11 pound bag, it can't happen unless one of us wins the lottery.

 

Ha ha ha. Well, it's only actually about half that cost, but it's still insanely expensive! I figure if I'm spending $140+ dollars on food, it's going to *actually* be raw, not just really expensive dry food. I use it for training treats....or occasionally I give one scoop for "lunch" to supplement, if we've had an active day hiking, etc.

 

Maybe feeding them each their own specific diet is the easiest and least expensive way to go??? I have the three dogs also and for no real scientific reason they each get something a little different, mainly due to what they were eating when I got them. Dewey gets the commercial raw ( Nature's Variety ) and a little of the same brand kibble in the morning ( he came from the breeder on that) and Honest Kitchen with home cooked protein at night. The GSDs are on another kibble ( still good but lower price because they eat more) with other toppers in the morning and Rex gets Honest Kitchen at night. Since Josie had been on the absolute worst kibble and canned brands known to man most of her life she is very grateful for good quality kibble and other things I add. Her hair and nails have changed dramatically in the last few months. It's really not hard to keep everyone straight mainly because they eat everything within 3 - 4 minutes and no dog is allowed to stand or look at another dog while they are eating. If I'm gone my husband doesn't mind getting separate food out for them as long as I leave instructions.

I just started a few months ago using Honest Kitchen because my big fear is not getting the nutrients, especially the Ca/P ratio correct in the home cooking but I wanted them to have fresh meat also. I know your guys can't have the potatoes or peas in the HK but maybe there are other premixes that do meet their requirements that can be combined with the fresh protein. I feel so much better now that I am combining the mix with the meat and they absolutely love it. I'm still cooking it because like you, the microbiologist in me could just "see" the bacteria on Dewey's ear hair and Rex's muzzle after they ate but one day I may change and add in the raw.

Well good luck! I've been thinking of doing a Nutriscan on Rex (he's the one I'm thinking could have some sensitivities )but am waiting to see how your story ends. It sounds like a mind blowing puzzle with all three dogs!
( PS Sorry to hear about Jav having to get stitches! )

 

Check out 'Only Natural Pet Grainfree Max-Meat Air Dried' at Pet360.com.........No grains, potatoes,peas or lentils etc 90% meat.
I bought a bag of this and really like it! It comes in Chicken, Beef, or Lamb & Fish....I thought the chicken or beef would be good for you!
It's a dehydrated meat based food and you can feed as is(it's a complete diet) or use it as a topper or break it into treats.....very versatile!
They list all the nutritional info on this site too.

 

Ziwipeak is made in NZ, so it's probably cheaper for Ian Dunbar 11 pounds of Australian lamb would be cheaper. I have sticker shock from a $300 bag of dog food!

 

I pay about $135 for an 11 lb bag of Ziwipeak lamb. A little goes a long way--that will feed one of mine for over a month, with added stuff in the morning and evening (egg, yogurt, and canned food).

 

Mfmst Ian Dunbar lives in the San Francisco/Berkley area, so if he gets Ziwipeak on the cheap it must be his special price (if only I were a famous dog trainer). Verve, I need a super limited ingredient diet if it is going to work for the three dogs, so I have had to take many suggestions people have made off the list. Although I know I would feed less volume of something like Ziwipeak if I used it alone it still sounds cost prohibitive. Right now it costs me about $125-150 a month to feed them and I would like to stay in that range, if possible.

Keep the suggestions coming. Crowd sourcing is what will get me a solution!

 

I'm making Babykin's meals right now and for many years I had to make home made food for my tpoo due to her pancreatitis. I suggest when considering the starch and other non-meat additions to the diet - look for foods that they digest well.

Vets always recommend rice for sick tummies - but frankly they don't digest rice well in my limited experience of two poodles. Even ground up rice from the food processor can be seen in the stool. I know you are avoiding potato which is what I'm using - but look for something like potato. I never see lumps of potatoes in the stool - the stool comes out looking pretty uniform.

 

Rice, potatoes and sweet potatoes are all off at least one dog's list. I planned to use whole wheat pasta.

 

A Good list of homemade dog food recipes ...........Google; 56 Homemade Dog Food Recipes

 

No idea, but maybe one of Wysong's specialized formulas could help? I didn't vet for ingredients; use Uretic for my cat.

Fundamentals? - Limited Ingredient Dog & Cat Food | Wysong
Anergen? - Hypoallergenic Dog & Cat Food | Wysong
Nurture with Quail? Dog & Cat Food | Wysong
Epigen? - High Protein & Starch Free Dry Dog & Cat Food | Wysong

 

I don't think I have looked at those yet. I will check them out later.

 

It's pricey and not a kibble, but the very berry chicken Smack might work.
http://smackpetfood.com/collections/very-berry-chicken-crunchy-style


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It's pricey and not a kibble, but the very berry chicken Smack might work.
Very Berry Chicken | Crunchy Style | Smack Pet Food


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WHOA! That is pricey!!! ($109.00 for 5.5#bag) Take a look at the Only Natural Pet MaxMeat Chicken and you will see it is basically the same thing, just not berries,it's Chicken & pumpkin! But is a like formula of meat with bone and organs included (like in the Smack brand.) Price is less than 1/2 of what "Smack" brand is! (7.5# bag of Only Natural is $48.99 at Pet360)
Kayla, it's really good too ....or at my girl thinks so hahaha!!!!

 

Hi lily cd re, I've been away a lot lately and I just saw this thread. Mfmst mentioned that I use Kindly (Honest Kitchen) base mix with Dulcie's raw grinds and I do - also Preference. Looking at the ingredients on the boxes, though, I see that both of them include peas in the ingredients (more in Preference). Also Preference has sweet potatoes, which I see is also a no no for your household. I also use Sojos base mix -- but alas, it also contains peas, down on the list.

A lot of people say the prey model of meat, organ and bone is sufficient for a dog's diet and that may be true, but I definitely noticed that Dulcie displays some odd foraging behavior when she has only the prey diet. That is why I looked into base mixes to add a little veggie and fruit and a little portion of complex carbs. I only use a small portion (the box may say use a cup with the portion of meat, but I use about 1/3 C (or even less of the Sojos) and 1/2 lb of the raw meat,bone and organ. This seems to work out well for Dulcie and stops the foraging behavior when we are out walking. She maintains a healthy weight and is in great health, so this works for us. However, Dulcie has no (known) food sensitivities. Mind you, she does have food PREFERENCES -- for instance, when she was young and still eating some kibble, her favorite was the rabbit formula of Nature's Variety Instinct. Strangely, though, she will not eat the coarse grind of raw rabbit that I was so excited to find for her! I tried it several times, with several days between but no go.

My source for whole animal prey model coarse raw grinds is My Pet Carnivore, based in Indianapolis. They ship al over th country and to my mind, even with the Fed Ex shipping, a month's supply is pretty economical and compares pretty favorably to the cost of high quality kibble. It is a little more, but the quality is so good that it is worth it. I am lucky that they do something of a milk run in Chicagoland (and many other places in a 4-5state area) so I pay a base rate (about $15) for route delivery -- and I meet the truck at a local supermarket parking lot where I pick up my one or two boxes of frozen grinds. I let them defrost in the fridge when I get home and then I repackage them into serving sizes. It is safe to refreeze.

You can get a wide variety of meats from MPC -- beef, lamb, pork and chicken of course, but also mutton (cheaper than lamb and slightly fattier but tastier), turkey, duck, rabbit, emu (!), muskrat (! Dulcy loves this!) and a couple of types of fish (both lake varieties from Michigan native American tribes). The meats and fish are all humanely raised and butchered -- top quality.

Something to consider as you are figuring this out!

ETA I spend about $85- $100 per month for Dulcie's food (not counting delivery) and that usually includes a bag or two of duck necks and several raw beef tracheas (each package contains one trachea cut in half -- so two roughly 6-8 inch pieces. I further divide them into about 2-3 inch pieces. At I think 1.98 per package, these go a long way and are a great chewy addition to a meal and also provide some joint health nutrient - I don't recall what exactly). The rest of her diet is made up of the occasion pork back ribs if they go on sale at my local grocer or even a beef short rib when the sale is really good (like today when they had a surplus after the holiday) -- I also get Amish chicken from this grocer when they are priced well and I just have him cut them in half or quarters before I freeze them for portions. Most of Dulcie's diet is the MPC grinds, however. The bone in meats I get locally are more of a treat and to give her some bone chewing satisfaction.

 

I should add that about once or twice a week, I squirt the fish oil from a capsule onto her food (I just use human grade but the one closest to the dog recommended ones). I also often top her food with a spoonful of plain greek yogurt (chobani or Fage), which I always have on hand because I eat it myself. LOL

Other than that, though, I don't supplement her diet.

ETA Dang, I forgot I also sometimes toss a can of whole sardines on top of her dish, especially if she hasn't been too eager for whatever it is.

All of the above are not scheduled but more occasional toppers I add just to please her or (in the case of the fish oil) as a bit of extra insurance.

 

ARGH! I forgot one other really important thing about MPC -- they offer tripe! Several animal sources. You can get it alone or in various grinds already mixed in (that is how I buy it, because I don't want to deal with mixing it in myself). I think they call those grinds something like "Lamb Supreme" or "Beef Supreme" or similar.

Regarding your concerns about salmonella etc when dealing with raw - I really understand that! Certainly cooking food can alleviate some of that concern, although you will still have to handle the raw meat before cooking.

I was concerned about kitchen hygiene as well -- having had a memorable bout with food poisoning when I was younger, I don't mess around in the kitchen at all! That is the main reason why I repackage my grinds as quickly as possible. I put the deli containers in y fridge with paper towels under them and as soon as they are just thawed enough to be able to divide the 2lbs into 4 portions, I get straight to work. I use plastic food handling gloves and put the servings into small freezer bags. I bag up 40-50 servings (Dulcie eats twice a day) and then stock up the freezer. This takes me about an hour. Then I clean the counter tops and fridge thoroughly and I'm done for another month!

Dulcie doesn't need her food totally thawed. As long as it is thawed enough for me to chop the base mix through it a bit, she is OK with it cold. This helps with kitchen cleanliness too, since I don't have dripping raw food around.

Food for thought!

 

nifty, thank you so much for your thorough review of what you have done with Dulcie's diet.

kayla_baxter I looked up your suggestion, unfortunately no one near me carries it, and wow on the price.

All of you have been so kind to take the time to make thoughtful suggestions and even to do research for me. I hope that other folks will find useful ideas here if they want to do NutriScan and then make diet changes to help their dogs get maximal health benefits from their food.

This has been a great crowd sourcing conversation. I realized that I think I will need to wait to make the switch until the semester is over. Peeves has a sensitive gut and had such issues about changing diet the last time we switched that I stayed home with him for two days. I can't do that so close to the end of the fall semester.

A couple of my work colleagues have been able to direct me towards butchers nearby where I should be able to get the meat ingredients for a cooked diet that I think will work for us. As I get closer to finalizing my plans I will have a consult with my vet and post here as well to make sure I haven't missed anything.

Thanks again, to be continued...

 

Hi Catherine, I'm looking forward to reading about your new feeding plans!

I wanted to correct a mistake I made earlier just as a matter of record. I stated that both the HK and SOJOs base mixes contained peas and that is incorrect. The SOJOs does NOT contain peas. It does, however, contain sweet potato (first ingredient).

 

Hi Catherine, I'm looking forward to reading about your new feeding plans!

I wanted to correct a mistake I made earlier just as a matter of record. I stated that both the HK and SOJOs base mixes contained peas and that is incorrect. The SOJOs does NOT contain peas. It does, however, contain sweet potato (first ingredient).

And therein lies my complicated dilemma! Even though it might not help me I am sure that your correction will help others who are making feeding decisions down the road.

I did order some items in furtherance of the plan to cook for them. I got a good new kitchen scale that weighs accurately from just a couple of ounces all the way to eight pounds. I also got a new canister set to keep dry supplements in. I also got a couple of packages each of organic sea kelp powder for an iodide source, and a couple of packages of calcium citrate powder in the event I run out of or don't have time to make bone broth. I also bought a couple of small cases of pints of bone broth to start or again if I don't have time to make. And lastly I got a case of whole wheat rotini to use as a carb source. We can eat some of that ourselves too.

I have three poultry farms I will check with and two local butchers: one who grinds their own local brand raw; one a wholesaler who is located near BF's job that someone he knows buys meat for his dog from that I will visit to find my meat source vendor. I don't really want to buy a freezer and so I would prefer to develop a relationship with a local meat provider. I have a very large enameled french oven that I rarely use which should be good for cooking a week to ten day's worth of meat at a time. I also just bought some good ziploc containers with screw top lids that I can use for making portions.