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Hm.. Yeeah.. everything you guys are saying is pretty much going "WHOOSH" right over my head. :D

So.. is a fading gene okay in whites? Since I see a lot of them born with cream or apricot on them, normally the ears, but are very white when they grow up with still very dark points.
Is this a concern in whites ?
 

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Is this a concern in whites ?
I dunno if its a concern in whites or silvers. I don't think breeders worry about it really not unless they did not want creams and just whites? , mostly just black poodle breeders worry about that. Like others had stated on here you can have a black fade ( bad black) then you have the nice inky blacks that stay black their whole life.


I still have not seen a inky black ( all of the show dogs are young ) so I never know whats what in the ring, I also seen dyed dogs so that does not help at all.

The browns are super confusing to me still. How can you tell a cafe au lait from a regular brown ? I can tell the difference with the silver beige and the browns but never cafe au laits.
 

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I dunno if its a concern in whites or silvers. I don't think breeders worry about it really not unless they did not want creams and just whites? , mostly just black poodle breeders worry about that. Like others had stated on here you can have a black fade ( bad black) then you have the nice inky blacks that stay black their whole life.


I still have not seen a inky black ( all of the show dogs are young ) so I never know whats what in the ring, I also seen dyed dogs so that does not help at all.

The browns are super confusing to me still. How can you tell a cafe au lait from a regular brown ? I can tell the difference with the silver beige and the browns but never cafe au laits.
the bitch that I competed against in Flagstaff was INKY black had three majors and was stunning Did not mind losing to her that day :)
I think the resposabilty lies with the breeder to properly color code the puppies at birth. So if you are breeding for brown keep the silvers out of the line If you are breeding for silver biege bring it onilvers that is ) . Am I correct in this thinking ?
 

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Is this a concern in whites ?
I would think so...
It all depends on the gene... dilute genes affect the color of the nose... greying genes does not.

So, with that said I would imagine that breeders of whites would prefer a greying gene over a dilute gene as they want to keep the points on their dogs black and not liver or fading.
 

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So, if it is a dilute gene in a white dog, they can end up with a liver nose?
And that would be D for non-dilute, and d for dilute?
So a DD homozygous dominant would be totally unaffected, a Dd heterozygous would be a carrier, and a dd homozygous recessive would be a sufferer?

And without the test, what would consider a sufferer? a dog that is born with a liver nose, a dog that is born black and faded to liver?

Or am I completely and utterly wrong on this entire subject?

Thanks :)
 

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So, if it is a dilute gene in a white dog, they can end up with a liver nose?
And that would be D for non-dilute, and d for dilute?
So a DD homozygous dominant would be totally unaffected, a Dd heterozygous would be a carrier, and a dd homozygous recessive would be a sufferer?

And without the test, what would consider a sufferer? a dog that is born with a liver nose, a dog that is born black and faded to liver?

Or am I completely and utterly wrong on this entire subject?

Thanks :)
Yes, D is dominant (non-dilute) so dogs that are Dd will not be diluted but are carriers of the dilute gene (d)
A dog that is dd will be dilute.

Now you can't say that a dog with a liver nose is a sufferer, because genetics are just not that simple, there are many different genes that affect coat and point colors.
There are 2 tipes of liver (bb and dd) so a dog can either have a nose that is liver (bb) or a liver dilute which is (dd)... (dd) can range anywhere from dark brown nose to pink. The other problem is that if the dog is genetically black with a dilute gene then the nose will be (dd) blue dilute. Also a blue diluted nose can often be so dark that it seems black.

If that makes any sense :wacko:
 

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So any guesses what my dog could be?

She has black pigmentation on lips, eyerims and pads, and had a black nose as a puppy, but now it is liver. I know she pretty much lived outside as a puppy, but slept inside at nights.

Her brother has a fully black nose, her sister has a slightly off black nose. Not sure about her parents, but her grandmother apparently had same nose as her. But they made it black, lol, and her grandfather's both had fully black noses.
 

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Speaking of fading noses on white spoos, and my apologies for veering off subject here, but I found it interesting and a bit off-putting that it was fairly commonplace at the akc show to dye faded noses using some weird human chemical product that required several steps of application. Because dog shows are supposed to reward correct type, and a fading nose is a fault, why would it be fair or justified to "cheat" in order to get faded noses past? The whole point of showing is to determine good breeding stock, right?
 

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Speaking of fading noses on white spoos, and my apologies for veering off subject here, but I found it interesting and a bit off-putting that it was fairly commonplace at the akc show to dye faded noses using some weird human chemical product that required several steps of application. Because dog shows are supposed to reward correct type, and a fading nose is a fault, why would it be fair or justified to "cheat" in order to get faded noses past? The whole point of showing is to determine good breeding stock, right?
I agree Kat , this is why when I see Dyed Black dogs in the ring I am :doh:
 

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Well - that is where "great pigmentation" comes when one describes a dog of superior quality and you are absolutely right - people cheat in a ring by "blackening " black dogs hair !!!! I did not see noses done :wacko:- that is just preposterous :bird: !!!! How is it allowed ????? Black nose is a MUST for both black and white poodle for showing :doh::fish:
 

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So any guesses what my dog could be?

She has black pigmentation on lips, eyerims and pads, and had a black nose as a puppy, but now it is liver. I know she pretty much lived outside as a puppy, but slept inside at nights.

Her brother has a fully black nose, her sister has a slightly off black nose. Not sure about her parents, but her grandmother apparently had same nose as her. But they made it black, lol, and her grandfather's both had fully black noses.
If your dog previously had a black nose that turned to liver this is proabably because of loss of pigment and not because of the dilute gene. Dogs who are dilute are usually born diluted. (meaning that if they are blue they will be born blue or slightly darker than blue or if they are apricot they will be born apricot). For example weimeraners, blue pit bulls, fawn/blue dobermans etc. But as I've said before this is not a rule of thumb as there are many different genes that work together to create coat and point colors.

It won't be because of the greying gene as this does not affect the color of the eye rims and/or nose. Dogs who carry the greying gene are usually born black or dark liver and lighten over time for example: yorkshire terriers, kerry blue terriers, bedlington terriers... even thou they lighten their eye rims and nose color remains black.

Determining genes in dogs is not always easy because there are quite a few genes they can not accurately test for. I think the greying gene is one of them.

What do they use to color/dye the noses with?
 

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If your dog previously had a black nose that turned to liver this is proabably because of loss of pigment and not because of the dilute gene. Dogs who are dilute are usually born diluted. (meaning that if they are blue they will be born blue or slightly darker than blue or if they are apricot they will be born apricot). For example weimeraners, blue pit bulls, fawn/blue dobermans etc. But as I've said before this is not a rule of thumb as there are many different genes that work together to create coat and point colors.

It won't be because of the greying gene as this does not affect the color of the eye rims and/or nose. Dogs who carry the greying gene are usually born black or dark liver and lighten over time for example: yorkshire terriers, kerry blue terriers, bedlington terriers... even thou they lighten their eye rims and nose color remains black.

Determining genes in dogs is not always easy because there are quite a few genes they can not accurately test for. I think the greying gene is one of them.

What do they use to color/dye the noses with?
I have heard of a thing called "De nose nos"
 

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If your dog previously had a black nose that turned to liver this is proabably because of loss of pigment and not because of the dilute gene. Dogs who are dilute are usually born diluted. (meaning that if they are blue they will be born blue or slightly darker than blue or if they are apricot they will be born apricot).
This had me going "Aaahhh!" thanks for the great explanation! So you're saying those dogs will eventually fade to a washed out color?
 

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This had me going "Aaahhh!" thanks for the great explanation! So you're saying those dogs will eventually fade to a washed out color?
Not necessarily, like I mentioned, many genes are involved in coat and point color. Often the loss of pigment can vary in intensity. Some dogs might have a slight fading on their nose and others will have their nose turn completely pink and have their eye rims affected as well.
A black changing to pink/liver nose can also be the results of a “winter” or “snow” nose (which is not permanent) or can be caused by the disease Vitiligo, but I think that is unlikely because Vitiligo sufferers also looses pigment in their coat, which causes patches of their coat to turn completely white.

A dudley nose does not affect the coat color as far as I know and there is not really any treatment for it. But seeing as it doesn't harm the dog, I don't think it is something that you should be too concerned about.
For some reason I thought I read somewhere that you could slow the loss of pigment process by adding kelp to your dog's food?!?! But don't take my word for it ;) I've never tried it. "Life Line" makes Ocean kelp that you can add to dogfood if you want to test the theory.
 

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non fading red standard fadct or fiction

Hi there, I am new to this forum but as I understand it DD means non-dulite, dd means dulite and Dd means carries for dulite, BB refers to the points, BB means black points, Bb means black points carrying for brown points and bb means brown points, as with brown, and silverbeige. I have a red girl that I reciently got color tested and she is DD ee Bb meaning red with black points, but carrying for brown points and no dulite gene. You are right tho that there is no test for silvering gene but no silvers in her pedigree so hopefully I will have a better chance of Dark Red puppies.
 

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Heather...

I just wanted you to see these photos so you'd knoe Betty and Jenny are not flukes of nature. This is Eleanor, their litter sister. I just got these adult photos of her yesterday. The first is of of her at about eight weeks old( she has the red collar), and the second two are current photos of the same girl. She has darkened remarkably and again, it must be that Holly and Dugan both tend to throw darkening pups.
 

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Sorry...my photos of these guys as youngsters are not cooperating, but if you go to my web site, there are a ton there on the Meet Our Dogs page and then 2008 litter photos.
 
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