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Discussion Starter #1
:laugh: I know I know... this is a overdone topic... I just have one question; Does anyone out there own a Standard Red that is over 3 years old and has not faded?
There is so much talk about bad blacks and non-fading browns that it just got me thinking...... I've seen some really nice older blacks lately that are still a deep, dark, inky black, and a few deep browns that are still a rich chocolate brown even at 5 and 6 years old... but really, I don't think I've ever seen a red at that age that has not faded to an apricot shade of some sort. I would love to see if there are any "good REDS" out there!
As most of you know, I have a wonderful 5month old red pup that I love with all my heart. I am fully aware that he will most likely fade to a nice apricot color and I'm ok with that.
I just want to see if any of those claims about non-fading REDS actually exist. :)
 

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:laugh: I know I know... this is a overdone topic... I just have one question; Does anyone out there own a Standard Red that is over 3 years old and has not faded?
There is so much talk about bad blacks and non-fading browns that it just got me thinking...... I've seen some really nice older blacks lately that are still a deep, dark, inky black, and a few deep browns that are still a rich chocolate brown even at 5 and 6 years old... but really, I don't think I've ever seen a red at that age that has not faded to an apricot shade of some sort. I would love to see if there are any "good REDS" out there!
As most of you know, I have a wonderful 5month old red pup that I love with all my heart. I am fully aware that he will most likely fade to a nice apricot color and I'm ok with that.
I just want to see if any of those claims about non-fading REDS actually exist. :)
Its fact , A pal on flicker posted a red poodle who was 9 years old and it was still a nice red. Let me find it and I will post the picture for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
he's a great colour for 9 years old!! Awesome! Wonder what his pedigree looks like....

what are your thoughts on Enzo? is he going to stay dark? or do you think he'll lighten up too?
 

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You will find breeders who claim their dogs will not fade. I don't think it is true. While some of us will get lucky enough to get a deep, deep red that holds its colour, most of the pups, even pups from the same litters as those deep ones will fade. I contacted DDC labs and asked about non dilute genes and graying genes, and they informed me that a dog can test out showing it has the non dilute gene and still carry the graying gene, for which there is no test. They don't see a test for graying available in the near future either. So it appears if it doesn't have one thing it has the other. In a litter of ten last year, I had three born a good red that have darkened over time to the deepest mahogany I have seen. I don't feel they will fade as they started lighter and darkened until now, age 15 months. I had three medium reds who are a fair bit darker than they were at birth, three golden reds who are the fiery red we most associate with red Poodles, and one who I sold as apricot who has shocked us all and is a deeper, rich fiery red, darker than the golden reds were. I believe all but fouur of the pups will fade out, not to apricot, because apricot leans more towards yellow tones, but to a faded rust. BUT, we did not see the extent of the darkening until they were over a year old. So how can I possibly tell people the pups will not fade when I surely didn't know how much some of them would darken. I would presume the best way to breed reds in hope of non fading puppies would be two breed two dogs together who have a history of darkening puppies, and I believe that is what we were lucky enough to have happen with Holly and Dugan. But even the deepest red dog bred to a deep red dog can produce fading pups because of the graying gene. If you look around the different sites and even this forum, there are not many reds over a year old that are the deeper tones, but rather are the orange tones which tells me they will likely fade. Just my opinion and my personal experiences. One day we will all get it figured out, and hopefully produce entire litters of mahogany pups that hold that colour until they are old and...never mind. We don't want gray!!
 

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he's a great colour for 9 years old!! Awesome! Wonder what his pedigree looks like....

what are your thoughts on Enzo? is he going to stay dark? or do you think he'll lighten up too?
As for Enzo we do not know He is still dark and is 1 year of age. I had other breeders and handlers tell us he looks like he will hold his color so we will just have to wait to find out lol

Arreau I think you are right ! thanks for the additional INFO I did not know about the graying gene. I have asked several breeders about their reds and apricots and they all said the same thing you just mentioned. It really is a guessing game. I do not know how some of these other red breeders claim their dogs will not fade because they where colored tested ? Vetgen is not aware of any fading gene Cbrand pointed that out to me and she was right !

I hope you and others do figure it out :)
 

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The first two photos are Betty-Jo who has continually darkened. The second set of three are Jackson, who I thought would end up apricot who deepened, but not to the extent of Betty-Jo. Betty is mahogany and Jackson is the fiery red we associate with red Poos. (sorry- Will post younger photos of Betty-Jo on a different post)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I guess I'm just skeptical because I see so many 1-2 year olds who are this color, but then they change after 2 - 3 years of age.... how old is Jackson?
 

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Yeah but what if Lucy turns GREEEEEEN???!!!??? JK! I'd still love her to pieces! Katy's brown poodle is just a year (DOB 9/23/08) and is already liberally sprinkled with white hairs amidst the brown... although no one claimed the person who bred her was a good breeder (or even a decent breeder, or a responsible human being... :rolffleyes:) In spite of her changing colors we love her more than ever!!
 

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I am so sorry, my last post is very confusing. It did not turn out the way I wanted. The baby pictue of Betty-Jo apparently was too large a file, and the photo that is three pictures attached together is from the welcome page on my web site. Jackson is the fellow in the picture on the right of those. He is also the little light boy in the last post sitting by himself. I will post some photos of Betty as a youngster so you can see how much she has darkened over time.
 

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When I was hired at my current job, we're trained on the importance of good dog food, and they show before and after pictures of dogs that have been on a high quality diet, their colors are darker and deeper and their coats are glossier.

If a poodles color is looking a little bland, do you think a higher grade food could help? I'm fully aware of how much they fade from puppy to adulthood, lots of dogs change colors, but what if there's no fading gene?
 

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Jackson is Betty-Jo and Jenny's brother so he is fifteeen months old. Lucy won't be green (well maybe with envy over what some OTHER Princess has) and I believe she is going to darken a lot!
 

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If there is no fading gene then there is likely going to be a graying gene. There always seems to be something, and the only thing that is going to help is very selective breeding. I don't think a dark red to a dark red is necessarily going to produce non fading dark red offspring. I think breeding red to red with each of them having a history of producing pups that darken is going to help. Food may help somewhat. I notice if Holly is given lots of raw carrots (which she prefers to any meat) her colour looks better.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
If there is no fading gene then there is likely going to be a graying gene. There always seems to be something, and the only thing that is going to help is very selective breeding. I don't think a dark red to a dark red is necessarily going to produce non fading dark red offspring. I think breeding red to red with each of them having a history of producing pups that darken is going to help. Food may help somewhat. I notice if Holly is given lots of raw carrots (which she prefers to any meat) her colour looks better.
I was totally thinking that food might help! That's a big reason I started feeding Rogan Orijen, and he also gets lots of raw baby carrots almost every day, just cause he loves them (and they fall on the floor alot from all the kids snacks!) and I figured, hey, all that carotene might actually be good for his coat!! :laugh: never thought it would actually work!
For Rogan, I would be shocked if he didn't lighten, I am fully expecting him to look like Dugan by the time he's 2... and that's just fine with me, I knew that from the beginning, and it didn't come as a shock to me... Like Plum said, green, blue, apricot,... I will love him no matter what colour he ends up being.

My beef is with breeders who talk about deep red puppies all the time, but never show pictures of their adults (over 2 years of age). And consumers buy into this hype, thinking their dog is going to stay that colour for the long term. Bottom line is , I just haven't seen many mature Reds that are still dark red and wanted to know if there were any out there that have held their colour. So far, the one Roxy showed me is the oldest I've ever seen with great colour.
 

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I couldn't resist posting some baby pics of Betty Jo. The first 2 are just a couple days after we got her. The next 2 are a few weeks later. The last 2 are 2 months later. The ones of Betty Jo and Jenny (Betty Jo has the blue collar) Arreau posted were taken about 4 months after that and the one of Betty Jo on the chair was taken a few days ago. You can really notice a change in the colour over time
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Wow, you're right, her colour is phenomenol!! Wish we could figure out what's causing her to darken like that!!!
 

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Thank you Trillium for posting those. I was having all kinds of trouble. Like I said, I think it is just breeding two dogs TOGETHER who each have offspring that darkened. I hear you on the whole deal with some of the breeders only posting old photos of younger dogs. I am also tired of seeing enhanced pictures of reds. Better people are aware of exactly what their red puppy MAY look likke age two, rather than giving them a false hope of what their puppy will look like.

Brandi, the puppy from my current litter who went on to the show home in Alberta was way darker at eight weeks old than Betty-Jo was at eight weeks, so it will be so interesting for me to watch what happens with her colour!!
 

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I have met a dark red male whom is 9 years old, his name is Sheldon whom Mithril Standards owns and studs out. He is a beautiful color, like a dark little puppy However, he has a broad rear skull. He is a nice dog but not the sharpest knife in the drawer as his owner attests to.
 

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Thank you Trillium for posting those. I was having all kinds of trouble. Like I said, I think it is just breeding two dogs TOGETHER who each have offspring that darkened. I hear you on the whole deal with some of the breeders only posting old photos of younger dogs. I am also tired of seeing enhanced pictures of reds. Better people are aware of exactly what their red puppy MAY look likke age two, rather than giving them a false hope of what their puppy will look like.

Brandi, the puppy from my current litter who went on to the show home in Alberta was way darker at eight weeks old than Betty-Jo was at eight weeks, so it will be so interesting for me to watch what happens with her colour!!
IA 100%

I remember looking at a red breeders website and this breeder took a picture of her bitch with her new puppies under a red light ....:wacko:

I too hate how the red breeders who claim their dogs don't fade do not post latest pictures of their dogs. They keep these old ones up for years usually the dog is like 1 year-2 years in the pictures.
 

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I have met a dark red male whom is 9 years old, his name is Sheldon whom Mithril Standards owns and studs out. He is a beautiful color, like a dark little puppy However, he has a broad rear skull. He is a nice dog but not the sharpest knife in the drawer as his owner attests to.
He's Harry's grandfather. Just found this out yesterday. Small world isn't it? I wouldn't say Harry is the sharpest knife in the drawer either but he's a cool kid.
 
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