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Discussion Starter #1
Hello from Canada!

I am completely new to poodles and have developed a new appreciation for Standard Poodles (and true Moyen/Kleinpudels) after discovering this beautiful dog's working origins, its "natural" unshaved appearance without a hunting or show clip and its amazing personality and intelligence. This is of course with all respect for the clips, the shows and those who love them!

This is definitely a dog that I would love to own if the opportunity presented itself in the future. For now, I'm enjoying learning more about this dog! It's a surprise interest to me, since the Siberian Husky was always my favourite dog.

I enjoy doing my research, so for future reference I have a question if anyone is willing to humour me and my lack of poodle expertise :)

I realize there's a variation in facial features and structure within the bounds of proper conformation for any breed, but I love the more solid-boned poodles I've seen, with a face shape that is more blunt/rounded with wider set eyes, as opposed to long/thin face. It's an overall softer, less angular look that I prefer.

Does anyone know what I mean, and are there reputable breeders you recommend for this overall appearance? I hesitate to say "stocky" because I don't believe true standards should be stocky...

Thanks in advance to all you poodle experts out there!
 

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Welcome to PF and ultimately answers to all things poodle.


As to your question I am not quite sure what you mean, but wonder if what you are referring to is really about sexual dimorphism of which there is some.


Here is my girl Lily who is on the dainty size. It is also Lily in my siggy pic and avatar.


ready to go home.jpg


And here is my boy Javelin who is I think just a nice looking boy (admittedly in need of a hair cut here though).


Javvy 4th bday 2.jpg
 

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Yes, perhaps the difference I see in poodles' appearance is due in part to gender among other factors.

Some have finer bones and thinner faces, and some have wider muzzles with sturdier legs and bodies (and by the way, I find all types beautiful :) It's a breeder of the latter type that I'd like to find.

Maybe poodles bred for hunting offer this appearance ?
 

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I was unable to see the first photo for some reason, but Javelin is one good-looking boy! He looks like my kind of poodle :)

Poodles are addictive, I must say. I stop anyone on the street walking one to ask about it now.
 

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There's been some talk on the forum about the best age to neuter, and it makes a big difference in how the dog develops and grows. Neutering before physical maturity makes the dog grow taller and weedy, with thinner bones and less substance. This is because the hormones needed to help the dog develop properly have been removed. Javelin is not neutered, so has a nice, sturdy build.

I wait until my dogs are two years old before neutering. My dogs are males, so I haven't researched age to spay a female.

I don't know about specific lines or breeders, but I do know that neutering too early will give the characteristics you don't want.
 

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I do not like a stocky or coarse standard, as you are correct that that is NOT the breed standard. However, Javelin is a super handsome, masculine boy, and my Frosty also has great bone and substance. Being a horse person, I think of him as more like a Warmblood vs. a Thoroughbred. I neutered him when he was 15 mos. old (wanted to wait longer, but his behavior dictated he be neutered then).
 

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Yes, Javelin is intact and four years old. Lily was spayed on the young side, but I don't know that I think that profoundly altered her growth since she is correctly portioned, just fine built.
 

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Typically, there are “American” Standard Poodles, which are wider set with a bigger chest and more blunt features etc. Then there is the “European” Standard Poodles, which tend to be on the more delicate & smaller side. I personally have always preferred the more “classic” Spoo where they tend to be on the smaller side with the more pointed face and gentler features. The “European” style has been the “Standard” for Standard Poodles and I don’t quite know when that changed...


 

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There's been some talk on the forum about the best age to neuter, and it makes a big difference in how the dog develops and grows. Neutering before physical maturity makes the dog grow taller and weedy, with thinner bones and less substance. This is because the hormones needed to help the dog develop properly have been removed. Javelin is not neutered, so has a nice, sturdy build.



I wait until my dogs are two years old before neutering. My dogs are males, so I haven't researched age to spay a female.



I don't know about specific lines or breeders, but I do know that neutering too early will give the characteristics you don't want.


I signed a contract with my breeder for my 15 week little red boy that I won’t neuter until he’s 1 year old. She gave me a research article and I also did my own research and I totally see why it’s important to wait!! So glad to see you feel the same way. I wish more people knew this!!


 

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I signed a contract with my breeder for my 15 week little red boy that I won’t neuter until he’s 1 year old. She gave me a research article and I also did my own research and I totally see why it’s important to wait!! So glad to see you feel the same way. I wish more people knew this!!


Waiting until 1 year old is not nearly enough and you will probably end up with a tall, slimmer boy.

You need to wait until 18-24 months old.
 

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Waiting until 1 year old is not nearly enough and you will probably end up with a tall, slimmer boy.



You need to wait until 18-24 months old.


Really? Interesting. I heard that if you wait until they’re much older than a year that their risk of certain cancers increases.
Thanks for passing this info on though! I’ll give this a second thought as my boy is only 15 weeks so I’ve got lots of time!


 

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Most contracts stipulate that you must spay or neuter your dog at 1 year old. While it's nice to be able to wait until your male is 18 mos. to 2 years old, it's not always practical. Males can become aggressive and they can start marking in the house. That is precisely why I had my boy snipped at 15 mos. His behavior improved overnight.

For girls, it's ideal IMHO to spay them after their first heat. Their risk of cancer is only 6% after one heat (it's less than 1% if done before their first heat), but it gives their bodies a little more time to mature so that spay incontinence is less of a risk. The risk of mammary cancer rises steadily after the first heat if they are left intact.

Hope this helps.
 

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My puppy contract specified neutering by one year also, but I discussed it with the breeder and she was fine with me waiting until 2 years. Whatever the contract says is open to negotiation with the breeder, and if you spell out your concerns I think most would be fine with changing that clause.

Have to add that my avatar photo is of Zephyr when he was quite young, he has filled out nicely since then!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Typically, there are “American” Standard Poodles, which are wider set with a bigger chest and more blunt features etc. Then there is the “European” Standard Poodles, which tend to be on the more delicate & smaller side. I personally have always preferred the more “classic” Spoo where they tend to be on the smaller side with the more pointed face and gentler features. The “European” style has been the “Standard” for Standard Poodles and I don’t quite know when that changed...



I had no idea, interesting. I recently learned that there are noticeable differences between American and English Cocker Spaniels, or American and English Labrador Retrievers, etc, so I shouldn't be surprised with the Standard Poodles.

Great feedback everyone, thank you.

I love Frosty and Javelin I must say, gorgeous.
 

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Hi

Regarding neutering, the science now seems to lean to leaving a male intact, with some exceptions.

A link to a very long article below from a previous post on this subject:

Benefits and Risks of Neutering–An Evidence-Based Approach | The SkeptVet

and this is the link to an even longer paper by the same author:

http://skeptvet.com/Blog/wp-content...fiits-Risks-of-Neutering-in-Dogs-and-Cats.pdf

Excerpted from the conclusion:

"In male dogs, the individual benefits of castration are not clearly greater than the risks. In the absence of established problems with aggression, roaming, or prostate disease, it does not appear that neutering has predictable health benefits for individual dogs. And while the potential of increased cancer risk appears less significant for males than females, other breed-specific risks, such as that of cruciate ligament disease, are likely greater in neutered males. The population benefits, of course, argue in favor of routine neutering of male dogs. However, in terms of individual health, a strong case can be made for not
routinely neutering male dogs."

Mine are mini's. We decided to neuter just after 1yr, when they'd pretty much reached physical maturity. The loss of those hormones too soon can adversely affect many body systems, some sooner, some later. In the research I've done online, it seems to me that the loss of the hormones, especially too young, might be the catalyst for a lot of the problems. If neutering is a possibility, or even if required by contract, etc, waiting til physical maturity is reached (age varies) gives your pup the best chances.
 

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Spoos bred for retrieving typically are larger, Have wide muzzles and sturdy legs. Those bred for show are selected for more "elligent" looks With thinner legs and narrow muzzles. Spoos are an ancient breed and have been used in many ways for over 2000 years.


Eric
 
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