Poodle Forum banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am wanting to start breeding miniature Poodles. I am needing advice on what colors would be best to start with? I would like to get one stud and two bitches.
I know that black is the dominate gene, so does that mean if I breed a black stud it to a blue, brown or apricot bitch I would still get black?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,617 Posts
Hi and Welcome!

Most of us are not breeders, but there are a few of us who have knowledge about the genetics of poodle coloring. Maybe they'll chime in.

You don't mention whether you've owned poodles or any other dogs, or whether you've done any breeding before.

The most important thing any of us might tell you would be to search for a breeder mentor to help you on this.

Next would be to focus on finding fully health tested (OFA/CHIC) sires and dams to start with, as well as proven dogs (showing in conformation, obedience, performance...). You also need to focus on temperament of the dogs.

The very, very last thing to settle on is color since it's not as predictable as you might think.

There's a number of threads here discussing what constitutes a quality breeder but discussions of the poodles themselves, when someone is searching for a companion, repeatedly mention health and temperament above color.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,901 Posts
This forum is not pro-breeding unless you are in it to better the breed and achieve titles in sport or conformation.

Most important thing, you need a mentor to guide you, and your foundation dogs needs to be exceptional representatives of the breed.

99.9% of the members here are not breeders. The rare ones who are don’t talk about breeding much except to enlighten us with puppy pictures from their wonderful, carefully selected breeding stock.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,558 Posts
You don’t say, either, that you’ve done a lot of research on being a good breeder. It is so much more than breeding for good pets with good temperaments. Like it was said, breeding to better the breed is really the only reason to breed.

I made the mistake many years ago of breeding my female chi, for great pet purposes. I bred her with a beautiful chi stud, who also had just the best of temperaments. She had 5 puppies, and the first was stillborn.

I thought all of them would be awesome pups with great temperaments. I kept one of the puppies. One other stayed tiny like him, and the other 2 well outgrew their parents. Temperament wise, the two little ones were dog aggressive by the time they hit about 4 months old. The one I keep t ended up turning on his mother, then started attacking my hands. He was extremely food aggressive: to the point of guarding his food so fiercely, he couldn’t even eat. This dog was truly neurotic.

I told you that so you can see that it can turn out to be a horrible mess if you’re not breedings dogs that have it all. Also, you can’t make any money breeding: there are SO many expenses.

Please reconsider.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,323 Posts
Welcome Misty. First to prepare you, for anyone who hasn't shown and had their poodle in conformation, agility, etc., no matter how great the pedigree or how great you think your poodle looks, don't expect encouragement at PF to breed; it's just the culture of the vocal majority here. Dog forums differ in this regard.

Instead, read the many articles on what to look for in buying a well-bred poodle puppy from good breeders along with genetics, which will teach you a great deal should you go forth. I tend to be open-minded since everyone had to start somewhere, and one day you might become a top dog show person and breeder despite the overwhelming odds. There is much to learn and being good at this takes time, persistence, money and an element of luck to do it well.

That being said, if you don't read anything else, please read it more than once:
So You Want To Be A Breeder?

And what Jojogal said it true: you can’t make any money breeding. If this is your primary motive or you just want to do it for fun, on a small scale like you proposed, it's expensive and you may be doing more harm to the breed in general if they aren't very close to or at the standard of the breed, as well as your finances, the health your dogs, and any puppies especially if you are unaware of genetic diseases.

Your dog's prenatal and postnatal care will run up the tab. One C-section can cost $2K to $5K and will wipe out profit or even put you debt. Most vets won't even do planned C-sections and will refer you to an emergency hospital and these cost a bundle. If your poodle dies during labor and/or a needs a C-section, you've lost her too, and if you truly have come to love her, this will break your heart. Btw, pet health insurances do not cover vet bills for pregnancy-related issues or whelping.

If she or the stud turns out to be infertile or either refuse or is incompetent about how to do this, no pups. Also there's no guarantee she'll produce a litter of four or five pups; she may get pregnant with with a singleton or only two pups, and a tiny litter of this size creates create additional problems. Owning a male with two or more females in the household could also send him into marking all over your home. Better to pay for stud service from a champion poodle than have your own.

The only good reason to breed is your foundation stock (the two females and one male) are darn near perfect in what a poodle should look like, aka The Standard of the Poodle Breed. See sketches, photos, and a written description of these at links #1, #2, and #3.

The sire and dam ideally should both be champions and three of the four grandparents show champions, with lots of champions further back among the ancestors. At least these puppies will have a prayer of meeting or coming close to the standard of the breed. They are also more likely to have been tested and cleared for inheritable genetic conditions which you can see listed here, and other genetic problems.

Color is complicated. Many U.S. jet black poodle puppies start turning a steel gray blue at the age of two and will often first begin getting rust colored and gray, often starting around the muzzle. These are often called 'bad blacks', but they're just transitioning. It can be slow and last for a few years or complete after a year or two. This can be unnerving to if you (or your puppy buyer) thought you had a black poodle who gets a bunch of grey. This is one of the areas where pedigrees can fail: the ancestors are often listed as black when it was registered as a puppy, but later changed blue.

COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES by Arpeggio is rich with information about different color combinations between stud and dam, and is excellent for laypersons.

Here are two other great links that will teach you all about color:

Dog Coat Colour Genetics by Jesse

Genetics of Coat Color and Type in Dogs by Dr. Sheila Schultz, who created some of the genetic tests. (Advanced reading)

You can also have your foundation dogs tested for color, but study and master the above links so you'll understand results:

Full Color Panel $168 at VetDNACenter /DDC

Coat Color tests by PawPrintGenetics, priced separately per test.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
533 Posts
If you don’t breed in large quantities like the puppy mills (I do not recommend) do your more than likely not going to make money. At some point or another the vet fees will catch up weather it be a c-section, health test or taking a puppy to the vet to save it, meds for the mom if she developed an infection, health/litter check ups. My litter consisted of 5. DNA health test cost around $200, deworming, color test if you want that done is at least$40-90 depends on how many test, brucellosis health test was about another $150, puppy shots and health certificates were around $300, microchips were $90, plus akc litter registration-pre ez register was over $100. Tail docking,dewclaws, and meds for my bitches infection were another additional cost. That was a scare for about a week. Then she had another mastitis problem a few weeks later.One puppy cost me about $500 in vet fees and feeding every 3hours for 3 weeks and didn’t make it . Then another is promised to the stud owner, one is mine leaving me with two puppies to rehome. Puppies also go through a ton of dog food and I’m not sure how many toys I’ve bought :angel:.

Over in all I will probably make out enough to cover the cost of my dogs spay. Granted I got a puppy out of it too.

If you do the recommended health test (hips, heart, eyes,) you have to factor that in. More than 3 litters is usually not recommend so you also have to factor all the cost over the amount of litters .

If your raising your puppies in the house you need to think about the smell. Puppies pee a lot and after this litter I’m ready to rip my carpet out. Even staying on top of it they are sneaky. While that could have been avoided if I kept them in puppy pens all the time I don’t think that is a good way to raise them. Plus by the time they are 6 1/2 -8 weeks they want to explore. Bored puppies are noisy. :nod::music:


Some of these fees could be avoided if you do your own shots, and own tails/dewclaws but some vets won’t give health certificates if you do it at home. Depends on the state I think.

It’s not a all negative experience but you do need to go in it with lots of research. I love love love having puppies underfoot and will miss it. I plan to do it again after showing, health test on my new puppy in about 3-4yrs when I want to add another puppy but it’s for my own enjoyment not for making money.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,271 Posts
If you do the recommended health test (hips, heart, eyes,) you have to factor that in. More than 3 litters is usually not recommend so you also have to factor all the cost over the amount of litters .

Some of these fees could be advoided if you do your own shots, and own tails/dewclaws but some vets won’t give health certificates if you do it at home. Depends on the state I think.
Not doing the recommended health tests is completely unethical in my strong opinion.

I also agree three litters should be the max.

And I would never recommend anyone but the most experienced of breeders attempt the tails and dewclaws. It is VERY sad and painful when dogs get a butchered attempt and have to have it fixed at the vet down the road. Better to leave the tail intact anyway, imho.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,529 Posts
I am wanting to start breeding miniature Poodles. I am needing advice on what colors would be best to start with? I would like to get one stud and two bitches.
I know that black is the dominate gene, so does that mean if I breed a black stud it to a blue, brown or apricot bitch I would still get black?
First of all, color is the least important consideration in breeding poodles! Successful breeders - no matter what breed - usually start out by finding a mentor - someone who has been breeding quality dogs for many years. The way to find such a person begins by attending dog shows and talking to the people there. Once you have found someone to be your mentor, have them help you select ONE very good brood bitch prospect. The way most successful breeders start out is with a bitch that they have shown to her championship and, even better, achieved some performance titles. Once they have such a nice bitch, the next step is health/genetic testing. Only if the bitch passes all necessary testing with flying colors will they start looking for a male to breed her to.

That's not to say that all good brood bitches are champions - but all are of show quality. There was a top producing standard poodle bitch (she had, I think, 18 champion children) never finished her championship because her tail was only about 3 inches long because the vet who docked that tail had no real knowledge of how much tail to leave.

A large proportion of the people who breed dogs do NOT own a stud dog. Very, very few male dogs are good enough to be bred! As with the bitch, the stud must be of excellent show quality and have passed all health and genetic tests.

Now there are some exceptions to the above, but they are not common. The comments by others on this forum are excellent. I hope we have given you a bit more insight into breeding dogs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
This is all very informative for me, thanks every one for writing in such detail.

How many litters should a good stud dog have?

It sounds reasonable to me that there should be as many studs as dams, each responsible for 2-3 litters. But somebody said only a few studs dogs are needed. And often the AKC point schedule demonstrate that more bitches than dogs are competing.

Is it really good for the breed if the same stud dog is used for lots of litters? Don't we decrease genetic diversity by doing this?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,323 Posts
This is all very informative for me, thanks every one for writing in such detail.

How many litters should a good stud dog have?

It sounds reasonable to me that there should be as many studs as dams, each responsible for 2-3 litters. But somebody said only a few studs dogs are needed. And often the AKC point schedule demonstrate that more bitches than dogs are competing.

Is it really good for the breed if the same stud dog is used for lots of litters? Don't we decrease genetic diversity by doing this?

If the sole owner of 2 females and 1 male, and breeds the girls only 3x, the end result will be six litters. Three of the litters will be paternal half siblings to the other.

  • From a selling point, the breeder will earn more if one of the parents in a mating is a show champion.
  • From an aesthetic point, if the dog made championship, it is assumed the dog meets the standard of the breed.
  • From a health point, if all the dogs are unrelated or only have a few related distant relatives in their ancestry (which is not uncommon), and none are affected by a genetic disease, those upcoming generations won't have those diseases either. Caveat: they may have inherited others that are not testable.
That's where it gets dicey when one top producing show dog sires dozens of litters. This has already happened to poodles and now a few good breeders have began to attempt to correct it by using BetterBred to test diversity of future litters by testing both parents.

There's something called a population bottleneck which you intuitively hit upon in your question about diversity:

A population bottleneck is an event that drastically reduces the size of a population. The bottleneck may be caused by various events, such as an environmental disaster, the hunting of a species to the point of extinction, or habitat destruction that results in the deaths of organisms. The population bottleneck produces a decrease in the gene pool of the population because many alleles, or gene variants, that were present in the original population are lost. Due to the event, the remaining population has a very low level of genetic diversity, which means that the population as a whole has few genetic characteristics.

In purebred dogs, if a parent with slight visual flaws or had never been titled is knocked out of the breeding game. However other desirable genes are knocked out too, and lowering genetic diversity in the process. We can't do DNA lab tests for cancer, Addison's Disease, epilepsy, thyroid problems, etc. When we spay/neuter dogs of sound body and temperament but may not be absolutely perfect, we are also knocking out dogs with genes that protect them.

You'll read here and on other dog forums how people are so pleased that their dog has an outstanding pedigree, but as you get to know about their dogs, you learn that some of their poodles have developed terrible diseases and need medication and/or surgery to survive, and they are shocked. "How could this happen?, they wonder, since their dog came from such an excellent breeder and the parents and grandparents were fine?"

Thus, in the human pursuit to get the "best of the best" by casting a narrow net in which poodles should be bred, we cheat ourselves as well as the poodle population by lowering the available gene pool and diversity. This can result with pups with a higher COI (Coefficient of Breeding) and/or are more prone to detrimental health conditions.

For additional & highly entertaining reading, see this article from a Corgi breeder:
"A football field of dogs (health testing…yeah, you know I’m going to stir this pot)".
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top