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Discussion Starter #1
Yeah that's me, starting the threads off on the right foot on my first day. Well, since I've started looking for a good breeder of miniatures and possibly standards, I've looked at a lot of websites and talked to quite a few breeders. The controversial question I have is about the price of a puppy. What I don't understand is someone asking $1500 for a pet puppy when neither of the parents of the litter are finished and they have nothing backing up the pedigree of the puppies. Also I'd like to have full rights on my puppy in case I get crazy enough to want to show in conformation and yes if I show in conformation it will be in UKC. I don't care what other people have to say about UKC I think they are doing some wonderful things in that kennel club and we are all entitled to our opinions right?

Anyway, I'm an experienced poodle owner, groom my own dogs, am willing to learn conformation and be mentored by someone that lives close enough to do it, and will be a performance home soon as we will start agility with Harry in the fall. I'm a novice sure but I've got to start from some where to gain experience. Yet I'm actually scared to death to even admit that I'd like full registration on my dog to a breeder for fear that the breeder is going to think I'm a puppy mill or they are going to hike up the price of that puppy by another thousand dollars. I realize it costs money to finish dogs and it costs money and time to raise a litter of puppies but why on earth does it make a difference in price if the puppy was once going to be in a "pet" home and then suddenly it's going to be in a show/performance home, it's got to cost more money? Harry's breeder and I are friends, we talk about these things so I know what it costs to raise a litter of puppies. If you aren't showing and you have 9 puppies for $1500 a piece, you made a profit on that litter. I guess what I'm getting at is, where are the breeders that are willing to take a chance on a newbie without me having to take out a loan for a quality puppy?
 

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You might consider your definition of responsible breeder a little more closely which could help a lot in your search.

Perhaps you just left this part out but Nowhere in your post did you mention health testing, if the breeder isn't doing ALL of the health testing available before they breed their dogs how responsible are they? You can argue that health testing won't 100% garentee a healthy puppy which is true, but if 5 generations of dogs tested free of *insert problem here* then it is reasonable to assume your puppy has the highest possible odds of also being free of the issue. Nothing is set in stone, sometimes things come up or develop but you get the idea. Especialy in the case of dogs who are going to be doing things like agility having eyes and joints done at the very least would be very important.

Another question I have for you is WHY would you consider trying to find a dog to show in conformation from a breeder who is not showing? Never in a million years would I do such a thing, but thats me. I might look for a puppy to use in agility or obedience from whatever source was available but even then I would tend to lean towards breeders who were doing some performance events with their own dogs though it wouldn't be as important in that case.

There are loads of breeders out there who will "take a chance on a newbie". Maybe not with the best dog they've ever bred, but certainly with a quality example of the breed. You may or may not find that expensive. Some may be willing to do co-ownerships or retain ownership until your finished showing your dog and it has been spayed or neutered. That is really what limited reg is really all about. I place my pups on limited because I don't want you to breed, I also retain the papers until said puppy (if it's in a non showing home) is altered. In show homes, which I rarely place dogs in because I am so anal about people, I retain co-ownership until the dog is finsihed and altered, unless other arrangements have been made concerning possible breedings. This is a pretty common practice.

I cannot speak directly to the price issue, my dogs are not cheaply priced and never will be, but here are some general observations for you about what may or may not be going through a breeders mind.

I think it's important not only to consider the expenses of showing/finishing dogs, health testing, breeding, prenatal care, raising the litter and so on (I am by the way impressed that you already have and are aware of the possible costs) but also also consider the time and effort it takes to raise that litter. I would assume you would want a puppy from a breeder who did everything they could for their puppies and provided as many social experiences as possible which takes time. The price tag on a given puppy may also be a breeders effort to weed out some less desirable homes. It not a perfect methods but think about it. I know a pug breeder who is like this. Her thinking is that she doesn't want to deal with the web surfer or the newspaper reader who is just looking for a cheap dog (not that I mean thats what you are doing). She figures that a person who spends a ton on a puppy is going to have a greater respect for that puppy and will take every care with it. I can argue that spending that much on anything might just elevate it to a status symbol and not a family member but again thats just my opinion.
 

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I'm not a breeder, and to be completely honest, $1500 seems like a pretty high price, especially for 'pet quality'(I wonder how much a show quality pup is?), but I am prepared to fork out that, and more if the breeder has a great reputation, has a breeding practice I agree with, does genetic health test to ensure there is a lower chance of my poodle developing any genetic disorders, has fantastic pedigrees, and puts a lot of sweat, love, and time into their dogs(ie, showing and just loving their dogs). That doesn't mean that everyone breeding poodles and selling them for $1000 and up are good, quality breeders. It's a sad fact that a lot of people breed just for the money, and have no care for the well being of the dogs and the breed.

From what your telling us about this breeder, it doesn't seem like a wise choice to get a puppy from them. They have no proper pedigrees for the litter, neither of the parents have finished...it seems very suspicious to me and I, personally, would not get a pup from them.

I think the reason a show quality pup goes for more is because it's hard to get a dog that conforms to the standards. Pet quality isn't going to be judged on how much it conforms to the standard, therefore certain faults the dog may or may not have can be overlooked. A lot of times these great breeders don't break even when they sell their pups, because of all the time, sweat, and money put into them and their parents, but they continue breeding for the good of the breed.

While I do agree that the prices are high for a quality pup, I'm willing to pay them for a quality dog that has a low chance of developing genetic disorders. I want the highest chance that my dog will be healthy, mentally sound, and have a long life free of any debilitating illnesses. If paying more means I will achieve that then so be it.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I may not have mentioned the health testing but it was only an oversight not what I've been doing while looking for the right breeder. I do realize that it is an important part of breeding a litter of puppies and I am looking for breeders that have tested their dogs primarily in hips and PRA although I'm familiar with all of the other testing that's available. I'm also talking to people that have more knowledge and experience and guidence to what some of the older lines have bred for and what to avoid if you see it in pedigrees. I realize that a lot of people are wary of the new person and because I put myself out there as a person that may or may not want to show, it's a gamble on sending a really nice show puppy with me because it may or may not end up finished. I get all that.

I got an email from a breeder that just irritated me about the cost of her puppy. She was asking more than I can afford and I'm not so low on what I can afford that I might as well adopt a puppy from the human society either. I was highly offended by the tone in which she implied I might not understand the cost of raising a standard poodle. I had already told her that I owned two of them so I'm very familiar with the costs of owning them and although she apologized to me, I won't have anything to do with someone that will talk to me like that. First and foremost these dogs need to be someone's pet that's loved and cared for. Second, the dog can participate in someone's hobby of raising and showing dogs but it's not really what the dogs want it's what we want. It would probably be good if some breeders weren't so eager to discredit the novice pet owner before they get to know them because they pass up on chances of finding really good quality homes for their dogs. That's just my humble opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
And I disagree that it's hard to find a puppy that conforms to the standard. I think if you are breeding correctly you should get most of your litter to conform with the standard or something is wrong with your breeding program. Standard poodle litters are pretty large compared to other breeds so you have quite a few chances to show off all the hard work and research that you've done to get fabulous examples of the breed.
 

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I'm sorry if I didn't elaborate further, but I do think that breeding can be a very unpredictable and at the same time predictable thing.

Dogs are individuals and not every dog is born equal. There are dogs that are show material and there are dogs that aren't. I'm sure there are inbetweens too. Showing is a very arduous task, and picking a show dog even more so. There are so many factors when choosing, not just in looks. Personality and temperament are some major things to consider. Does this dog really shine and demand attention? Not to mention all the little details that I won't get into. So while a puppy may have met the standards in terms of look, he/she might not have such a spontaneous personality as say a different puppy with only minor things that don't quite meet the breed standard.

That's just my opinion on things though. Feel free to disagree.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I don't disagree with that entirely but I think that more often than not, show quality puppies are placed in nonshow homes as pets because there aren't enough show homes for puppies that can go out and win in the show ring. We are talking about standard poodles here and it is just in their nature to be outgoing in temperament and have that showy attitude. I have yet to see one that has been socialized correctly that is extremely shy and introverted. While I do think that there are some individuals that are just more laid back and would prefer not to have to be "pretty" for people, I think overall, poodles are just a wonderful show breed (temperament wise not coat).
 

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Yes I too believe that they are a very outgoing and friendly breed more often then not. Absolutely a wonderful show breed full of personality and spunk, and they are known for that lovely personality. Some may not be as motivated for show, just like some aren't treat motivated and others are.

If you have a good consistent breeding program, more often then you'll get what you expect. I just really see them as individuals, and I don't like to generalize because in all honesty no two dogs are completely the same, though they can be very similar, especially to parents/littermates.

Maybe one of the breeders here can illuminate their particular reason as to why pet quality prices differ so vastly from show quality. As I said before, that's my opinion, and I could be completely wrong. I'm no breeder :go-away:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Yes I too believe that they are a very outgoing and friendly breed more often then not. Absolutely a wonderful show breed full of personality and spunk, and they are known for that lovely personality. Some may not be as motivated for show, just like some aren't treat motivated and others are.

If you have a good consistent breeding program, more often then you'll get what you expect. I just really see them as individuals, and I don't like to generalize because in all honesty no two dogs are completely the same, though they can be very similar, especially to parents/littermates.

Maybe one of the breeders here can illuminate as to their particular reason as to why pet quality prices differ so vastly from show quality. As I said before, that's my opinion, and I could be completely wrong. I'm no breeder :go-away:
It's just my opinion of course and I don't know a lot but I think it has something to do with the seriousness in which they want the potential show owner to take the dog's show career. I guess what I'm asking or saying by all of this is that not everyone wants to make showing dogs a career and go to as many shows per year as the breeder wants them to. I've always wanted to do conformation showing and most people I've talked to said that I was nuts for wanting to do something where so many people are so mean and so backstabbing. Almost all that I've talked to about AKC showing have told me it's just like that movie and it's barely an exaggeration. It really makes me wonder why so many people continue to do something that's so awful. Then I've had some say it's a lot of fun. Most of those people show very limited and don't take it all too seriously or show in UKC.
 

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Poodles are the fad dog right now, more so the Standards and these "Tiny Toys" and unimformed people will pay out the ass if they think they are getting something "rare" or special.

I have not once in my life bought a dog...ever. My standard girl was given to me by a friend of mine. She paid $1800 for the because of her color and patteren and got the shaft because she is not the color nor the patteren the breeder promised and now the breeder has droped of the face of the earth.

Anyway back to price. I am currently looking for a Toy Parti color to show. I have found a breeder that I like and her pups are only $800 with breeding rights, I am currenly on a waiting list for a puppy.

I have looked at countless breeder websites and emailed with a few of them and just about all of them charge different prices for a multitude of things. This I think is nuts. $1500 is a LOT of money to spend on a dog no matter how much quality it has. I know many people in the show world with different breeds and none of them pay nearly that much for a show quality puppy.

There should be no difference in price as ALL dogs are pet quality but not all are breeding quality and I think as a responsible breeder you should be more concerened with who ends up with your dogs then how much they are paying.

I know there is a lot that goes into breeding a litter but come on if you have a litter of 11 puppies and you sold each for $1200 thats $13,200 you more then double how much it cost to breed the litter and test the parents. (I found a breeder whos dogs I liked and she has had three litters this year and has sold evey puppy for no less the $1200 and each litter had at least 8 puppies they have made more then $30,000 in breeding Standard Poodles. That ****ing insane.)

Anyway now for the new owner thing. I don't blame breeders for wanteing to make absolutly sure you are going to follow though on your showing plans. You either buy a dog to show or buy a dog to be your pet its not a "I may want to show it one day." it does not really work that way. I know when I do have my kennel of dogs non show quality puppes will be spayed and neutered and I will try my damndest to get those show/breeding worthy in the ring to see what they've got.

Yeah I rambled a bit but in short, let breeders know right from the get go that you have owned Poodles or currently have Poodles/dog and you would like to maybe show your puppy. Take time in finding a breeder you like with the price you want to pay. It takes time and effort to find the perfect dog.

Also one last thing I took offence to this comment
"She was asking more than I can afford and I'm not so low on what I can afford that I might as well adopt a puppy from the human society either."
Shelter dogs are just as deserving as puppies from a breeder. They are not some cheep dime store dog only poor people can afford. Hell there are some breed rescues who want upwards of $300 for an altered adult.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I meant nothing offensive by that comment. My husband works for the director of our local Humane Society and I know how much he asks for his dogs out there and it's usually based on the dog itself and it goes anywhere from $150-300 and up if it's a purebred dog. What I meant by the comment was that in case a breeder is thinking "okay if you want to pay that low go adopt a dog from the human society" I'm offering a lot more than $300 just not $1500. A lot of breeders have the mentality that if you don't pay their asking price of $1500-$2000 that you aren't worthy of their pet.

I agree with you, I've done the math. I saw a website that tried to break it down and explain why they ask $1500 for a pet puppy. Did these people even have finished champions behind the pedigree to at least dispense with the idea that they have put a lot of money insuring that their dog is conformationally sound against the breed standard? No, they owned standard poodles and I guess that's just damn enough reason to ask someone to pay $1500 for a pet. I'm pretty sure if they are breeding the dogs more than once the first litter pays for all the genetic testing done to the parents of the litter, if they even really did the testing. I also talked to a parti breeder with the same thinking and I told her outright that if she didn't own one single finished champion I'm not paying her $1500 for one of her puppies because why should I? I also agree that show people tend to swap dogs all the time so they do not pay the prices that they ask us novice pet owners to pay. $30,000 per year for selling people pets is a lot of money. I'd say take about 1/3 of that for the care of those dogs and you've got profit there. That's what I don't understand. Don't even get me started on shipping. I live in Texas and haven't found breeders here that don't ask under $1500 for a puppy so I've been looking at other breeders in other states as well. Well, it pays off but then I've got to pay shipping. Well, some people want to overcharge for shipping as well. I can add. I know how much it really costs to ship an 8 week old standard puppy. If you ask more than that you are asking it for your convienence and you should just say so. At least be honest and say what you mean instead of acting like every last cent is going towards the plane ticket.

Is it so hard to ask for someone that's completely honest with you and won't try to take advantage of you because A. you can't find a breeder in your area and you can't come to their place and actually pick your puppy and B. you are a novice and don't know enough about them or what they breed or what's behind their lines to know the truth of what they say. I hear a lot of talk about pet people but there are a lot of unscrupulous show breeders out there as well.

As far as showing, I disagree with you. Not everyone can and will spend every single moment in the show ring with a dog. I've got kids and a family and I want to do things in my own time. I'm not a dog groomer so I have to learn how to groom the coat and it's very possible I'll need some help with that. If you don't want your dogs out there with a family that's going to love them and maybe take them to a few shows annually for what they think is going to be a little competitive fun then don't sell them and keep them all yourself or put them with handlers for finishing. Otherwise I say let a person decide how often and when they show their own dog. This is all supposed to be for the confirmation of the conformation of the dog but it's not. A breeder pretty much knows what they are producing if they are experienced and they can and do evaluate dogs on their own to see what came out of their breeding. Just because there are X lines behind a dog doesn't mean much if the person is an awful handler or they aren't having luck with grooming. I don't think you should penalize someone for being new and taking things slow.
 

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I did not mean that you have to show every weekend. Hell I can't even find a show close enough to me to go twice a month. What I meant was that you will be dedicated to showing the dog to its championship and if said dog does not enjoy the show ring or comes up with some DQing falt then it should be altered. I personaly feel all dogs should be companions first and formost.

I raised rabbits for 10 years and it aggirvated me to no end when I would sell show worthy kits to people who promised to show nine times out of ten I never saw the rabbit again on a show table.

Anyway like I said you just have to find that one good breeder you agree with.
 

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Some prices for dogs really are absurd especially when they are registered with a scam registry-might as well have any papers at all. I have never payed over $300 for a dog and if I an help it I will not go with buying a dog again-adoption is a WONDERFUL option and in a lot of cases it saves lives. People are really milking animals these days for money, I seen some kittens for $10...just plain old yellow kittens and mixed breed puppies I think was accidental for $25 or more, ridiculous imo.

I guess I'm just not made of money like alot of people but I will NEVER own a show quality dog because I cannot and will not pay that much, $1000 or more can buy a lot more needed things.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I did not mean that you have to show every weekend. Hell I can't even find a show close enough to me to go twice a month. What I meant was that you will be dedicated to showing the dog to its championship and if said dog does not enjoy the show ring or comes up with some DQing falt then it should be altered. I personaly feel all dogs should be companions first and formost.

I raised rabbits for 10 years and it aggirvated me to no end when I would sell show worthy kits to people who promised to show nine times out of ten I never saw the rabbit again on a show table.

Anyway like I said you just have to find that one good breeder you agree with.
Well, what one person's definition of "dedicated" and another person's are usually two different things. Some people think you aren't dedicated if you don't show to all possible majors in a year. You are right, it's all about clicking with that one breeder and working out the details.
 

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Adopting is really a wonderful option, but it's really hard to find a puppy, let alone a purebred puppy. I would really ideally like to raise my first personal poodle from the puppy stages. It's actually hard to find a purebred poodle at all anymore. They mostly seem to have the doodle mixes.

I guess you could call me crazy, because I would pay over a grand for a well-bred poodle from a breeder I like. I think it's a long-term investment and from my experience sometimes getting a better deal means getting lesser quality. I'm not saying their aren't breeders who price below a grand and are respectable, but I would say a lot of the breeders I've questioned that were selling under a grand didn't do any health testing at all. Health testing is really important to me especially after losing dogs to genetic diseases.

On a side note, someone direct me to the quality pups under $1000! My search as been futile. The prices I've seen range from $1000-$3000, sometimes more because of color.
 

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Yeah, with what Aki said, I too want to raise my dogs from puppies, as they are going to be retrievers. I'm sure you can train an adult dog to retrieve, maybe. Only if it's modivated, but if a puppy is raised on it it'll pick up faster imo.

And what Purple Poo said on the last page, it's pretty obnoxious when people hack up the prices on 'tiny toys' and 'micro toys.' AH THAT DRIVES ME NUTS! There's no such thing! There are toy, mini, and standard poodles, that's it. I would NEVER, EVER buy from someone saying their pup was a 'tiny toy.' That screams BYB.

I imagine it can be hard to find someone who has an honest price for their dog, any BYB can say all their dogs have had testing and price their dogs at 1500, but do they? Idk, I think I'm on topic? There was a lot of thick paragraphs and I did a lot of skimming, lol.
 

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I completely understand. I waited a long time to find a breeder who would first of all, let me meet the puppies and evaluate them and choose my own puppy. Secondly, it was difficult to find a dog that was priced well, and yet has had health testing done and champion parents.

We ended up finding our puppy and she is a mini from Rockhill/Kiyara lines, and she was $800, and we were able to meet the litter of 4 black puppies and spend time getting to know their personalities to find out which one was right for us.

It was not an easy task finding a breeder that we felt comfortable with.
 

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Not to go completly off topic but whats the stigma around raising a puppy insted of getting an older puppy or adult dog? I got my Standard at 11 months old and she is awesome, smart and well behaved.

Puppies are hard, sure they can be fun but so can an 11 mobnth old puppy! Or in my moms case a 2 year old dog. She adopted him from an old woman who never let him out in the yard and she said he loved his toys. Well now that he can go out side he LOVES the water and playing with the other dogs and riding in the car and just beeing a Poodle he barly even touches his toys now, he'd rather be outside.

Also training a puppy to retrieve is part instinct part training. Sure it could be easier to do so from 8 weeks on but dealing with the chewing and the whining and the potty training and what have you. granted when I get my puppy it will be awesome but I'll still go ugh. lol

Anyway don't dismiss an older puppy or young adult dog they need homes too and you have just as much time to train them.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I personally love puppies and all that comes with them. It's not easy but it's rewarding too. My boy Harry wasn't a teeny puppy. He was 12 weeks old when we got him and already house broken and we really had very few issues with him at all. I think 12 weeks is an ideal age.
 

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haha puppies are fun, I guess I just like adult dogs better! I guess since I started rescueing 5 years ago and ending up with alot of adult dogs I lean more towards them.
 
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