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Discussion Starter #1
I have an appointment with a breeder next week. She raises Standard and Moyens. Her website says that Moyens are Standards that she has bred down taking her smallest Standards and breeding them.

First question: Why does the internet show more health issues in a Moyen than a Standard??

Second question: Boy or girl. I have had both over my lifetime and mostly I think females are easier. What say you????? Seems like she has a mostly boys left.

Thank you for your help. I am new to forums so I may suck at posting.

Beverly
 

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Hello,

I’m not an expert but Moyens are not small standards. They are a separate size, in Europe (there are 3 poodle sizes in North America and 4 in Europe). You breed a Moyen to a Moyen to get a Moyen, just like you breed a toy to a toy or a standard to a standard. Moyen simply means «*medium*» in French.

She would have to import dogs from Europe to legitimately claim she has Moyens.

So either she doesn’t know much about poodle sizes, or she’s dishonest.
 

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Yeah, small spoos do not equal moyens. But a small spoo is a lovely size too.

And no, in my experience, boys are much easier in spoos. I have a very small sample size of one male and one female, though :lol: But I've had both sexes of many breeds over the years and looking back, the girls are much more neurotic, needy, and yet more independent. A boy will be in love with you, just totally devoted. Having said that, I love having one of each.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I will have to go back to her website and verify. Maybe I misunderstood her explanation of the Moyen. Thank you very much for the feedback on male vs. females. Jeez I think I am replying to MaizieFrosty but umm not sure. Still figuring out how to use this forum.
 

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If her "moyens" are just small standards then they will just have the same health issues as any standard poodle.

Personally I went with a boy when choosing my recent miniature pup for a few reasons, but the most important to me was that I knew I would be waiting until maturity for spay/neuter (or possibly vasectomy) due to health reasons and my schedule can be somewhat unpredictable, so I knew I did not want to risk having a female dog go into her first heat when I have to be out of town. I also feel that males are usually stereotyped as a bit easier going and a bit less prone to dog aggression. But also more goofy and with a delayed maturation. I have noticed a preference for females in poodles, but I think that may just go with the stereotype that poodles are feminine.

But beware, if you have a male poodle, people will always call him a girl because they are pretty!
 

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I agree with what Dechi said. In the USA the AKC has not recognized the moyen/klein size. In Europe they have 4 distinct sizes. I do not believe you can just breed a small standard to another small standard and decide you now have a moyen. Its kinda like taking two under sized miniatures and thinking you now have toy sized. I'm not so sure about that being ethical. But I am no expert on it so do your due diligence. Just be sure you are buying from a reputable breeder who has health tested her breeding stock and can show you perhaps some show titles. I personally find males easier to train. I have had both (not necessarily poodles). But poodles are smart so either will make a good choice. I think most females are more independent and more dominant . That has been my experience.
 

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I have a boy poodle and a female poodle mix. My boy is spectacular is so many different ways than the girl. He is cuddlier, quicker to learn, wants to please me more than my girl does. He listens much better, and while he is the alpha dog, he kind of sucks at it as he is not dominant at all. He is still trying(not too successfully) to set boundaries for the girl. I have always bonded better with males than females of any breed. It just seems to be much deeper. The males always wanted to be right with me, and the girls tend to want to wander off and do their own stuff. So I guess I would agree that females can be more independent. Just my personal observations with the dogs I have had. Hope you find your perfect pup! Good luck on your search.
 

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But beware, if you have a male poodle, people will always call him a girl because they are pretty!



LOL This is so so true. Everyone always referred to Renn as a girl. Now that he is filling out more at almost 2 not as much.
 

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But beware, if you have a male poodle, people will always call him a girl because they are pretty!



LOL This is so so true. Everyone always referred to Renn as a girl. Now that he is filling out more at almost 2 not as much.
And when they’re toys, people think they’re girls, and puppies even when older adults...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I agree with what Dechi said. In the USA the AKC has not recognized the moyen/klein size. In Europe they have 4 distinct sizes. I do not believe you can just breed a small standard to another small standard and decide you now have a moyen. Its kinda like taking two under sized miniatures and thinking you now have toy sized. I'm not so sure about that being ethical. But I am no expert on it so do your due diligence. Just be sure you are buying from a reputable breeder who has health tested her breeding stock and can show you perhaps some show titles. I personally find males easier to train. I have had both (not necessarily poodles). But poodles are smart so either will make a good choice. I think most females are more independent and more dominant . That has been my experience.
You are the second person that said females are more independent. It does make me feel better about considering a male but I sure haven't noticed the same with dogs I have had. My females (maybe not my small terrier mix if she is digging for a rodent :) will check that I am still behind them. Wait at an intersection to see which way I want to go. My males will be slow to notice I have stopped and start up a trail at the intersection before I have given the OK. Not that they don't come as soon as I call but.... Still they have been wonderful dogs
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Moyen

I told you people I am stupid when it comes to a forum. I just deleted Lily cd accidently. I hit the wrong thing. Anyway. I read your reply. I went back into the Poodle Breeders site and reread what she had said about her breeding of the Moyen. She used an oversized Miniature sire and a small petite Standard Dam. So I told you guys wrong. Sorry. Hopefully I can learn to use this forum better. Sorry Lily cd
 

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Discussion Starter #13
But beware, if you have a male poodle, people will always call him a girl because they are pretty!



LOL This is so so true. Everyone always referred to Renn as a girl. Now that he is filling out more at almost 2 not as much.[/QUOTE

LOL That's good to know
 

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I told you people I am stupid when it comes to a forum. I just deleted Lily cd accidently. I hit the wrong thing. Anyway. I read your reply. I went back into the Poodle Breeders site and reread what she had said about her breeding of the Moyen. She used an oversized Miniature sire and a small petite Standard Dam. So I told you guys wrong. Sorry. Hopefully I can learn to use this forum better. Sorry Lily cd
You can’t erase other people’s posts. Not even your own. It’s just not possible.

What you found out is not any better, even worse. Breeding inter-variety shouldn’t be done. Even though they’re the same breed, they don’t look exactly the same, mainly in bone size, and mixing them is not a good idea because we want every size to look like it should.
 

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You can’t erase other people’s posts. Not even your own. It’s just not possible.

Well I don't know. Saw her response in my email. Clicked on the wrong thing and her response was no longer available in poodle forum. Sometimes I really do feel old.

What you found out is not any better, even worse. Breeding inter-variety shouldn’t be done. Even though they’re the same breed, they don’t look exactly the same, mainly in bone size, and mixing them is not a good idea because we want every size to look like it should.
Okay, I don't know anything about it. Am I allowed to say that her website is crabapplepoodles.com??? Anyway, I think I am going to go for a Standard. I am going Tuesday. If I need saving please save me.
 

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Okay, I don't know anything about it. Am I allowed to say that her website is crabapplepoodles.com??? Anyway, I think I am going to go for a Standard. I am going Tuesday. If I need saving please save me.
She has at least 35 dogs, plus puppies. They probably don’t live in the house. It’s a large scale breeder and I haven’t seen any mention of health testing. No mention of showing or doing any sports. Plenty of red flags.

All puppies are cute. Don’t go see them, or you’ll risk buying one. You can do so much better than this. Read up on ethical breeding and health testing in poodles. This will save you from possible financial disaster (vet costs are expensive) and heartache.
 

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I did a google search for Crabapple Poodles and found some PF threads which focus on Crabapple Poodles, with one giving an account of their visit to the kennel. The latest of these threads is dated 2016.

https://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/212585-i-found-wonderful-breeder.html

https://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/142770-puppy-intro-post-meet-lena.html

https://www.poodleforum.com/2-member-introductions/240914-considering-poodle.html

https://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/32618-desjardins-crabapple-downs.html

I haven't gone further to see longer term reports on their poodles, but one member posting is still active in PF. Maybe a PM to them could get you some answers from an owner of a Crabapple poodle.
 

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I have a "moyen" who's actually a mini - Shilo, 18 months old, is an oversized, 16.75in/20 lb silver beige out of two 15-inch silver parents. When it comes to "moyen", it is a sensitive issue for the same reason as doodles - many breeders have tried to take advantage of their popularity and make a quick buck by breeding indiscriminately at the expense of health/temperament.

You will also find a lot of different opinions even among well-intentioned, knowledgeable people. Some denounce inter-variety breeding categorically (breeding a standard to a mini), while others feel if done correctly, it's a good way to add genetic diversity/improve health, especially for standard poodles (because standards are generally shorter-lived and suffer from more genetic bottlenecks than minis). I personally think common sense dictates that it's a bad idea to breed an extremely large dog to an extremely small dog, BUT - assuming all health tests have been done and other factors have been vetted, I don't see a problem with breeding a 17-inch oversized mini to a 21-inch small standard - I don't see how that would be any different than breeding a 21-inch standard to a 25-inch standard. It's the extreme size difference that matters, not whether one dog is technically one variety and the other is technically another variety.

Frankly, when you interact with Shilo, he looks and acts much more like a standard than a mini, even though he's technically a mini. I also have a "real" mini, Vontae, who's 13 inches/15 lbs, and they feel like two different varieties. I've attached photos below for your reference - Shilo the moyen/oversized mini is the lighter color/bigger dog.

Before you make a decision, I would suggest asking this and any other breeders you're considering about their breeding practices/philosophies, and what health tests they've conducted on their dogs, and visit the breeder/their dogs/their puppies with a critical eye and mind, and make your decision based on these rather than any overarching generalizations about moyens.

Good luck!

Kevin
 

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Discussion Starter #20
She has at least 35 dogs, plus puppies. They probably don’t live in the house. It’s a large scale breeder and I haven’t seen any mention of health testing. No mention of showing or doing any sports. Plenty of red flags.

All puppies are cute. Don’t go see them, or you’ll risk buying one. You can do so much better than this. Read up on ethical breeding and health testing in poodles. This will save you from possible financial disaster (vet costs are expensive) and heartache.
I got her name from one of her poodle owners while walking my dogs. On her Website she does talk about Genetic testing, being a member of some organization that keeps track of Poodle problems and how she encourages her buyers to keep in contact. She no longer docks tails or removes dew claws. She has a yearly get-together with Crabapple clients and their dogs (which I saw pictures of after this years Sept. party). All their Poodles, both Standard and small looked happy and healthy. I went back in and you are right I did not see where she talks about testing for hip dysplasia etc. I too wondered about HOW her dogs were kept since she does not believe in crate training AND, you are right she seems to have a lot of dogs. Not sure what I will do. Have my heart set on going.
 
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