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4 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've spoken with people from 2 that are reasonably nearby

Lake Sai (http://www.lakesai.com/) will have THREE litters available in the coming months. I've read some things about them that were a touch concerning searching the forums here...

Louter Creek Red Hunting Poodles sounded like they had their act together (but i only spoke with them breifly and i didnt find out if their dogs are all OFA and otherwise tested). They primarily train hunters but also have homed dogs as family pets and as service animals. ive heard some second hand endorsements for their dogs.

Stargazer Poodles looks like they take their dogs seriously. ive left them a voice message this morning and not heard back.

Any impressions on these three?
Are there any others within a few hours drive that i need to consider and reach out to?

Thank you!

Premium Member
3,662 Posts
I'm not familliar with Lake Sai but the name sounds familiar.

Louter Creek has a good reputation. You can check OFA yourself by entering the kennel name and see what comes up. Not every breeder registers with OFA so if you don't get hits, ask them where they test and for what.

Stargazer also is familiar but I can't say why right now.

If you haven't seen the breeder list yet, here's the link:

Start here, be sure to review the Resource links, especially for Health and don't skip the Poodle Clubs to look for breeder referrals and don't skip the multi state listings:

Also, for reference, I'm adding my personal criteria for choosing a breeder.

My Personal Breeder Requirements
My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these criteria are important in choosing a conscientious breeder and to get a wellbred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

! Anything not found on the website should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.

2,213 Posts
My general opinion on Lake Sai (based only on website) is positive save for one major issue. They seem to have a good program. Good looking dogs that have participated in conformation and agility. Good transparency and completion of health testing. Good puppy rearing program. But I have the same issues with the contract that people have commented on in the past. They require feeding a very specific brand of dog food and giving a specific supplement for their health guarantee to be in effect. Which just puts me off because it's an extremely narrow requirement.

Also they don't put details of their spay and neuter requirement which I'd want to know.

Louter Creek has a stellar reputation. Their dogs may be high drive for a non hunting home though.

Stargazer looks like an excellent breeder with really great dogs that are well titled and health tested. Though it sounds very difficult to get one of their puppies.

Premium Member
2,374 Posts
A friend has a Louter Creek dog. Good personality, good working dog. I understand she bred her dog with NOLA (who used to be active here; a bit outside the ATL area but worth looking into) and also has an Arreau dog (3rd generation?).

4 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
thanks for the recomendations all.
I was a little put off by the contract issues on LakeSai as well and they also have three litters due about the same time. Does that raise a red flag to anyone or should I just not sweat that?

Also, any info on Sundance Poodles? Standard Poodles Atlanta GA Poodle Puppies Champions Sundance
They have a litter coming and put me down as having a pup reserved. I didnt find anything on the OFA site about them but they claim that the dame for this litter was a national champion (of something?) at one time... They required no deposit and the price (I know, dont go cheap... ) was much lower. they have been doing this for ages andseem more concerned with the dogs than running a big breeding program. indicated that this was going to be one of their last litters and are breeding it because the last litter from this pair was so great that family members wanted dogs of the same lineage...

Their website and conversations with them hit all the right notes. They do black and whites and I'd prefer a red but... this feels more comfortable to me than the others ive spoken with.

Premium Member
3,662 Posts
Some additional info for you, found only, I've not followed the links yet.
This is a good sign since to list thru this site, some heath testing must be done.

Will edit to add if I find more.

Penny Daugherty's other "job":

4 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
accd to their website its all done and results will be passed along to their adopters:
As breeders we are fanatical about genetic testing and DO test for hips (OFA), Sebaceous Adenitis (GDC), PRA (CERF), thyroid and Von Willebrands (factor 8 in the blood). Of course this doesn't insure that all will be well so we guarantee (in writing) our puppies against any documented life threatening genetic disorder. Our guarantee is for life as there is no time limit on the manifestation of genetic problems.

Ive not seen any others that offer a guarantee for life. its been 2 years for all the other breeders ive looked at closely.

4 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
also, thanks for your help and insight. it is very much appreciated! :)

Premium Member
3,662 Posts
Ive not seen any others that offer a guarantee for life. its been 2 years for all the other breeders ive looked at closely.
They're out there. See this link for comparison of several contracts/guarantees if you like:

My general feeling is that the more limits and restrictions a breeder puts on a contract/health guarantee the more likely it is that they've had an issue with that and are trying to minimize their risk, not the buyers.
Again, generally speaking, a breeder confident in their practices, and health and other testing doesn't feel the need to cover every base in a contract. They believe their dogs will stand the test of time.

Premium Member
3,662 Posts
I didnt find anything on the OFA site about them
I did find some older info once I found some registered names to input and then followed the offspring links.
I mentioned in the other link about not always finding current publicly published results, especially for breeders that I feel sure must be doing it.
I saw the same note on the website and the only thing I question (not enough to not go with them) is why some breeders don't make the results publicly available. I just don't get that.
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