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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys! I just made a decision to get a poodle. I am looking for a red smaller size toy poodle. I’d like to bring him with me to as many places as I could that’s why I prefer smaller. I just don’t know who to trust, and I don’t want to end up with a sick puppy or get scammed. I’m willing to drive to pick him up. Do you guys have any recommendations?
 

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Hey guys! I just made a decision to get a poodle. I am looking for a red smaller size toy poodle. I’d like to bring him with me to as many places as I could that’s why I prefer smaller. I just don’t know who to trust, and I don’t want to end up with a sick puppy or get scammed. I’m willing to drive to pick him up. Do you guys have any recommendations?
If you are not familiar with Poodles, you should first go to the website for PCA (Poodle Club of America) which is the national/parent breed club for Poodles. Since you are looking for a toy, familiarize yourself with the health tests that a responsible breeder should be doing, at a minimum, on their breeding dogs (both the bitch and stud) before they are bred. Health Concerns - The Poodle Club of America You can also look at the Breeder Referral listings to get started searching for good breeders that you can reach out to. PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America

I will say that the demand for puppies is overwhelming right now. Many good breeders have waiting lists of a year or more.... If you are looking for a toy, where often a litter is 1 or 2 pups, and then further narrowing your options by wanting a red, you might need to be prepared to wait for quite some time for a good puppy from health tested parents. Oftentimes people don't want to wait, don't do their homework, and wind up getting a pup from some BYB or puppy mill who have pups because they have many dogs kept in horrible conditions and just pump out litter after litter after litter. I have seen any number of sad stories from people who got their dogs in this way....
 

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Eclipse said pretty much what I was going to say. Red is one of the rarest colors, toys have small litters, and some breeders have closed their waitlists due to the demand this year.

Something you might try is running a search for poodle show results. This should bring you up some lists of shows along with the dogs that were entered in that show. For example, in the Poodle Club of Central California posted the results of several shows from 2012 to 2015. Kennels with entries in these shows included Sharbelle and Black Sky. A show in Palm Springs lists more Sharbelle poodles along with Clarion and Kandyland. These results at least tell you these are real kennels with real dogs that have done well in shows; they aren't just some dude with a web site and a PayPal account. From there you could track down their web site, reach out to them to find out if they are breeding, and ask about their health tests etc.
 

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Hi and Welcome!

Excellent info from Eclipse and cowpony. This is my companion piece to what they've offered.

Not knowing your experience with dogs in general, and poodles and poodle breeders specifically, I'm going to give some overview info and then a link to a Breeder List compiled from member recommendations thru the years.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. Many poodle colors change thru their lives.
Temperament is lifelong trait.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to $3000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, I'll drop my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time :)

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


This is not a complete list so be sure to look at the Multi listings too. Every name on the list has been recommended by a PF member or several, or I have found them by searching thru websites for breeders that the recommended breeder also recommends. Then I went to every website and/or the OFA site and/or a general internet search to verify any health testing done. I only did this initially, before adding them to the list. It's up to the seeker to verify the breeders current standing.

Definitely use the Poodle Clubs for breeder referral too.

🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩
GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Wow, thank you guys all for the information. I really appreciate it. I would be new to owning a toy poodle. I’ve owned a yorkie before in the past, but when I purchased him he was sick & im really just trying to avoid that experience. I was thinking of another yorkie, but then I made up my mind to get the poodle.

I honestly didn’t even know to check for the testing or to even look at that.
If the breeders don’t list the health testing or guarantees on their websites is that for a reason? Or, because they want us to ask them? I’ve asked a couple for them and they seem to be bothered that I’m seeking this. Also, why are some breeders saying not to change their food or if you give them flea/tick meds warranty is void? I don’t understand that. How much is too much for a red toy poodle? I’m looking for one on the smaller size. One breeder is asking $4000?
 

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Websites are all over the place regarding information. A lot of very good breeders love dogs and hate business. Consequently, they lavish a lot of attention on their dog activities and may neglect things like websites (unless they also enjoy fiddling with html code.) Ironically, puppy mills often have better web sites than good breeders. Puppy mills need to attract customers to stay in business; good breeders can place puppies via referrals from their network of friends and other breeders.

Regarding testing, there are both legitimate and bad reasons for breeders to get defensive about testing. For example, if someone knows that both her dog's parents were negative when tested for PRA, she can be confident her dog is clear. On the other hand, I would be very puzzled by a breeder who insists there is no reason to do a patella evaluation. Both the AKC and OFA recommend this evaluation. I would wonder why this breeder is not abiding by the recommendations from two major organizations.

When I checked prices on gooddog.com, I saw a pair of breeders at $4k; everyone else was lower.
 

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If the breeders don’t list the health testing or guarantees on their websites is that for a reason?
I’ve asked a couple for them and they seem to be bothered that I’m seeking this.
Very, very generally, not for a good reason. If health testing isn't mentioned at all it's more likely that there hasn't been any but there are exceptions so if a breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask.
If they waffle, or say they don't feel it's necessary, or even seem bothered by the fact that you ask, if it were me, I'd pass on them and move on.
If you have the kennel name or the dam's or sire's registered name or registry number, you can search for yourself on the OFA site. This is explained in the Health section of the Breeder List along with the OFA/CHIC tests for the variety (size). There is additional DNA testing that can be done thru independent labs and some or all of that can also be listed on the OFA site, or may be found at the testing lab site if the breeder has given public access.
If you have a dog's registered name or the breeders name you can also do an online search just with that and that might link you to the publicly available DNA testing.
The two types of testing do not replace one another, they companion each other. OFA is sort of the benchmark.

Remember this:
If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.
Also, why are some breeders saying not to change their food or if you give them flea/tick meds warranty is void?
This one is a little tougher. It may be a breeder who just feels strongly about certain things or it may be a breeder who is setting up "outs" from whatever health "guarantee" they offer. Again, if it were me, I'd pass on that breeder.

If I live in a tick infested area or travel to one, I'd have to be able to consider giving the preventative. Same with flea control. I give it judiciously according to the season where I live or travel to.
The converse side is that there are sometimes adverse side effects, as there can be to most anything, but if you discuss options carefully with your vet, you should be able to make that decision, not the breeder.

The same reasoning applies to food. First, you wouldn't want to change food for the first few weeks. A young pup will be making stressful enough adjustments those early weeks. You don't want to add additional GI distress by changing food just yet. FYI, toys should stay with their mom and siblings til at least 10 weeks old, more if possible. Toy litters are usually quite small so they need additional mom and sibling time to learn some important life lessons.

If a pup develops food allergies, you'll have to change food. Your life circumstances may make the breeders preferred food or style of food difficult to get easily. You, and your vet when appropriate, should be able to determine what to feed your pup.

How much is too much for a red toy poodle? I’m looking for one on the smaller size. One breeder is asking $4000?
$4000 is far too much. If a breeder is charging more for sizing, especially "teacup", "tiny toy", those are marketing terms and are geared toward profit, not for the poodle. If a breeder is deliberately breeding for undersize poodles, they are not considered reputable because the smaller, smallest poodles are prone to even more health issues.

A normal size toy, up to 10" at the shoulder is very portable. "Pocket sized" poodles are not to breed standard and you'll find very few reputable breeders in that category. As an example, the short legs that look so cute lose their charm once you realize that it's a genetic mutation that can result in very serious, even deadly, spinal issues.

The same goes for breeders that charge more for certain colors. All marketing tactics. It costs no more to breed a red pup than a black, white, brown, silver, etc.

I'm going to link you to a website of a breeder who is a PF member but is not likely to be on your radar because they're in Canada. This website has just about everything a new family might need to know and is organized nicely so finding your way around is easy. Not many breeders have as detailed a site and that doesn't make them bad. If you familiarize yourself with the information offered by this breeder before you have to make any contact at all, you'll get a feel for what to look for in others, and what to ask if you don't find it.

 

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Cowpony makes a good points. Here's the OFA policy on cleared by parentage.

That means that if both parents have been DNA tested clear for a disease, OFA will declare offspring clear by virtue of the fact that the parents tested clear. However, there are a few requirements to clear by parentage.

1.) As mentioned, both sire and dam must have tested clear, and those test results must be on record with OFA.

2.) The sire, dam and the offspring to be cleared must all have been DNA identity profiled, and DNA profiles must be on record at OFA.



The thing about websites or any other public facing site is to learn what information to look for and see how much is actually on the website. What are they trying to get you to focus on?
Pretty pictures and flashy graphics are the smallest part of the story.
Do they feature only or mostly just cute lil puppies in their photos or do they show the dams and sires along with mentions of health testing?
Can you see or find links to the health testing on their site?
Do they show their breeding dogs in activities like showing, agility, etc, or just more cute puppies?
 

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All this info is pretty much valid across the board for any purebred dog, fyi. The health testing requirements vary by breed but that is likely to be the only difference.

Find the quality, conscientious breeder you can communicate well with. They are likely to hope to be kept updated thru your pup's whole life and will be there to help you, if needed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Awesome! Thanks again for the replies. I truly appreciate it. I know I might have to travel or have my puppy brought to me by plane possibly in fight nanny from some sights. Has anyone experienced this? & if so is it safe for the puppy to actually fly so young? I mean, I figure he would endure some sort of trauma or something? Also, I’m thinking about how would it work with this whole covid situation going on?
 

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Awesome! Thanks again for the replies. I truly appreciate it. I know I might have to travel or have my puppy brought to me by plane possibly in fight nanny from some sights. Has anyone experienced this? & if so is it safe for the puppy to actually fly so young? I mean, I figure he would endure some sort of trauma or something? Also, I’m thinking about how would it work with this whole covid situation going on?
Different airlines have different rules regarding inflight animals. I suspect the situation with flight availability and flight nannies will change monthly as the covid vaccine rollout continues.

One of the dangers with toy puppies is hypoglycemia - they are so small that they have a bit more trouble regulating their blood sugar when they don't get fed on schedule. Good breeders are aware of this danger and often won't release a puppy until it is older; 12 weeks isn't unusual. An advantage of a toy puppy is that it will still fit under the seat when it is 12 weeks old.
 

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Travel to your puppy if you can. That gives you the chance to meet the breeder and the pup's mother and any siblings, to see what the living arrangements have been, things like that. Covid is making this difficult but it can still be doable.

I, for myself, could not fly a pup unaccompanied, and not all that comfortable about flying a young, especially a small, pup even with a nanny.

It's done successfully all the time, I know, but I couldn't. I think of the little pup not understanding anything that was happening and trying to make sense of all the commotion and such, and I'd just have to be there for them :).
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
ahhh yes I was definitely thinking of that. I would be willing to travel and meet the breeder see how my puppy has lived and you know just catch a feel overall. I just want to avoid the puppy traveling if possible but what can I do if there is no local breeders that fit what I’m looking for or some that don’t do a waitlist and first come first serve which I get but it’s hard to do at times. It also makes it hard when I’m seeking a smaller toy.

Has anyone heard of prestigious toy poodles in Arizona?

I was also looking at poodles for life or premier poodles.

Thoughts?
 

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some that don’t do a waitlist and first come first serve
No breeder that I'd consider reputable will work on a first come first serve basis. I'd also expect that very few don't do waitlist.

Here's how those look with quality breeders:

There seem to be two main ways that breeders handle wait lists and deposits.

To some breeders the two are essentially the same. The new family and the breeder have had back and forth communications, vetted each other (an application also may or may not be required), and there is agreement between all parties. The good faith deposit is placed to hold a suitable puppy but there may not yet be puppies on the ground.

The other way is to follow the same procedures listed above but the waitlist and deposit are treated separately. The waitlist is the breeders way of keeping track of who wants what in a puppy, who's ready for a puppy, but the deposit is not required until puppies are on the ground.

There is a third way that can happen and that's serendipity. Possibly the new family and breeder have already gone thru this process with a prior dog and both feel comfortable with each other. Possibly the new family and breeder are introduced by someone known to each other so they feel comfortable. Waitlists and deposits may not figure in at all, puppies may be on the ground or planned, but the vetting either has been done before or is being vouched for.

Pros and cons to each way but that is between the breeder and the new family.

These are some examples of how a quality breeder handles deposits:

Example A

"Please be as thorough as possible when answering. Your answers help me choose which pup in the litter will be best suited to you and your family. Complete answers go a long way towards matching the best pups for the best families. Filling out the application is not a guarantee of approval. I require a $500 deposit to hold a puppy for approved families. If a litter does not result from a breeding then I will refund your deposit. Your deposit is not refundable in the event that you change your mind, purchase a pup from another breeder, etc. If you wish to be added to my waiting list complete the puppy application. Once approved you may send me a $500 deposit. Families who have been approved and send deposits are given first priority."

Example B

"Step 2: Waiting List

The "waiting list" is a document filled with dozens of potential families for our future puppies
. They range in colour preferences, family dynamics, time frames for bringing home a puppy, etc. When we are planning a litter, I will go through the waiting list and contact one family at a time until I find a few homes that are prepared for a new puppy. This is not necessarily a "first come, first serve" basis, but suitable families who have been waiting for 1 year will take priority over suitable families who have been waiting for 3 weeks. The order in which potential owners are contacted entirely depends on what we are expecting in the litter. If the parents of the litter are high energy and known for having more rambunctious puppies, we will be contacting more active and experienced homes. If the parents are mellow and easy-going dogs, we might contact the quieter, less active dog owners on our list.
Step 3: Litter Announcements

Litter announcements are posted on our social media pages, "Puppies" page of our website, and emailed to potential puppy owners (previously contacted and corresponded with before the litter was born). After this announcement, we will maintain contact and provide puppy updates while personalities begin to develop.
Step 4: Matching Puppies to Families

Once the puppies are 4+ weeks old, we will evaluate temperaments and conformation, and decide whether we want to keep back a puppy to show. We typically have input as to which puppy will do best with which family, but the information gathered from 4-6 weeks old will confirm that. We will be able to tell which puppies are shy, high-drive, patient, etc. When possible, we encourage the potential owners to meet the puppy/puppies of our recommendation to ensure it will be a good fit.

Step 5: The Contract

Before taking reservations on any puppies, each potential owner will be emailed a copy of our contract of sa
le. This document outlines our requirements for spaying/neutering, taking proper care of the dog, and an agreement that the dog will be returned to us if the owners can no longer keep him/her. This contract is to ensure that each party knows their responsibilities, and that the dog will be cared for during their entire life. Any questions or concerns regarding the contract should be addressed before the puppy is reserved.
Step 6: Reservation Fees (Deposits)

A non-refundable fee of $500 is required to reserve a puppy, and goes towards the final purchase price. This secures the puppy to their family until pick-up day.
We will then arrange a date and time for pick-up. This is the time to start purchasing supplies, puppy-proofing your household, and brushing up on dog training and behaviour."



Features in common:

There is a planned litter. Each parent has been health tested and then matched to each other for (hopefully) specific results in the litter such as temperament and drive.

The deposit is a good faith guarantee on both sides. The first states that the deposit will be refunded if there is no pregnancy and therefore no puppies. It would not be refunded because the buyer simply changed their mind.

The second breeder requires the non refundable deposit but not til after the puppies are on the ground.

With these types of breeders, they've not only made an investment in all their dogs, they've made an investment in you, the buyer who they've also carefully selected.


Examples of breeders that I'd run from:

  • Buyer understands that a deposit of $500.00 is required to place a puppy on hold.
  • Buyer understands the deposit is non-refundable.
  • Puppy must be paid in full before it will be released or shipped to the Buyer. If payment on the puppy has not been made in full by the
    shipping date, or the set receiving date, the Buyer will then forfeit his/her deposit, and any claims on the puppy.
  • Payment can be made by:
    • Personal checks are accepted for payment of a puppy. Buyer understands that by paying with a personal check, the puppy will not be released or shipped until the check has cleared the bank.
    • Paypal, Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express. These payment options will incur an extra 3.5% to cover the bank transaction fee charged by the credit card company (PAYPAL) or independent payment processor. Please contact seller with appropriate information."

"Deposits:
WE DO NOT ACCEPT DEPOSITS ON ANY PUPPY 6 WEEKS OLD OR OLDER. AT 6 WEEKS OLD ONLY PAYMENTS IN FULL WILL BE ACCEPTED. ALL PUPPIES MUST BE PAID FOR IN FULL ON OR BEFORE THE DAY THE PUPPY TURN 6 WEEKS OLD TO HOLD THEM UNTIL THEY ARE 8 WEEKS OLD AND THEY ARE PICKED UP, SHIPPED OR DELIVERED.
When you have decided to purchase your new Standard Poodle puppy from __, prior to the date the puppy turns 6 weeks old you will need to pay:
• $250.00 non-refundable deposit but transferable for Limited Registration on our male or female pups
• $500.00 or $1000.00 for Unlimited Registration on our male or female pups (The $1000.00 deposit price is for our ____)
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account. Send your PayPal payments to ____
• Fill out the contract. Please follow the directions carefully at the top of the contract.
Payment of Balance and Payment in Full:
• If you have put a deposit down on a puppy, PAYMENT IN FULL , minus the deposit amount, and including any shipping charges, is due on or before the day your puppy turns 6 weeks old. If we are delivering your puppy to you in person, you will be required to pay the delivery fee in cash when the puppy exchanges hands. If you are using our flight nanny services all fee must be paid in advance except the $250 flight nanny fee that will be paid in cash directly to the flight nanny.
• If you are purchasing a PUPPY that is 6 weeks old or older and have not previously put down a deposit, PAYMENT IN FULL is required at the time of the commitment to purchase.
• WE DO NOT ACCEPT CHECKS FOR BALANCES OR PAYMENTS IN FULL.
• If you are visiting ___ and picking out, paying for and taking home a puppy all in the same day we only accept Cash or Credit/Debit Card.
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account.
• Send your PayPal payments to __
• If you are purchasing a LIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out the Limited contract
If you are purchasing an UNLIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out Unlimited contract"


This all sounds reasonable until you see what is and isn't mentioned. What is mentioned: plenty of talk about payment and nothing else.

No talk of waitlist, no talk of alternatives, no talk of planned litters, planned results, puppies matched to owners needs...just send the money.


Looking at your suggestions:

Prestigious looks to be someone I'd follow up with but I'd want to ask why they don't seem to do the OFA/Chic testing on their breeding dogs.
I'd also really want to see the contract/guarantee first. If a breeder excludes certain conditions which could have been tested for in the breeding parents, I'd wonder why they don't just test the parents and remove that particular health issue.

Where did you find Poodles For Life? I'm not getting any hits with that on an internet search. If they're listing on a place like PuppySpot or PuppyFind, I'd runnnnnnn. Those places and any like that kind of marketplace is likely a broker site, not that different from Craigslist, often for high volume breeders, the kind that put profit over the health and welfare of the poodles in their care.

Premier Poodles

"we make it a priority to ensure a high health standard."
How do they do that? There's no mention of the type of health testing. OFA/CHIC testing is a minimum.

"Our breeding program"
What is their goal in their breeding program? Providing happiness to others is a bonus, not a reason to breed. What are they doing to improve the breed?

"consists of genetically tested"
This needs to be specified. DNA testing for parentage is not health testing, if that's what they're doing. The OFA/CHIC testing is the minimum standard. Poodle specific DNA panels to check for genetic diseases look like this, from PawPrint
These are companion tests. One set does not replace the other.

"and registered toy poodles"
Registered where? American Kennel Club or United Kennel Club are the only two purebred registries. You'll want to know both parents registered names or numbers so that you can verify that you're getting a purebred poodle. The puppies should also be registered either as a litter to convert to individual registration or already individually registered.

"Our breeding pairs provide several coat variations ranging from soft and fleecy to tight curls."
This is not to the poodle breed standard. The coat standard is "Coat: (a) Quality - (1) Curly: of naturally harsh texture, dense throughout." from the AKC Poodle Breed Standard http://poodleclubofthelehighvalley.com/IllustratedStandard.pdf

Their contract:
I stopped reading at "purchase price $4,000", then I made myself go back and read the rest.

8 weeks is too soon for a toy poodle to be taken from mother and siblings. 10 weeks is a minimum age. Toys need to remain with mom and sibs to learn valuable life lessons. They need to grow a bit more to reduce the possibility of hypoglycemia, which can be deadly, quickly.

6 months is now generally considered too young for spay/neuter. There is no known individual benefit to desexing this young, and may be benefits to waiting til the pup is physically mature.

"genetic defects" is not the same as genetic disease which may take several years to manifest. Back to the health testing of the parents.


They talk about health but offer no proof at all of the testing. They also offer no information on their sires or dams such as photos with registered names so they can be looked up at the AKC or OFA site, the OFA/CHIC testing info or links...

What are they trying to get you to focus on?
Pretty pictures and flashy graphics are the smallest part of the story.
Do they feature only or mostly just cute lil puppies in their photos or do they show the dams and sires along with mentions of health testing?
Can you see or find links to the health testing on their site?
Do they show their breeding dogs in activities like showing, agility, etc, or just more cute puppies?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Tons of good information. It is actually overwhelming and gives me anxiety for all the things I need to check for, but I know in the end it will all be worth it. I appreciate your help. Lately, I’ve been using good dog to do searches. I’ve noticed that for testing most state Genetics - Full Embark Panel, PRA, Rod-Cone Degeneration (PRA-prcd), Degenerative Myelopathy (DM; SOD1A) i believe there was only one other that I was interested in that provided another one apart from this one which was Knees - Patellar Luxation (OFA). They’re listed under good dog as “Good” for the amount of testing but i just want to be sure.

Also, sorry about poodles for life. It’s actually poodles 4 life with the number.

I came across Red head Heaven poodles which is near, but I’m not sure.
Thoughts?
 

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It is actually overwhelming and gives me anxiety for all the things I need to check for, but I know in the end it will all be worth it.
It's a learning curve, for sure. I've learned all this in pieces and am still learning. Once you get a handle on the basics and can start looking at the online sites yourself, seeing what is and isn't there, you'll be more confident in gauging what you're seeing.

On the Health testing, there are two basic categories.
Phenotype testing is testing by a physical examination. OFA stands for Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. Originally the testing was for the common orthopedic issues and as science learns, so do the rest of us.
Genotype testing is the DNA testing for the presence of genes which carry or inflict specific diseases.
Both types of testing are very important. When both the OFA/CHIC testing for primarily physical presence of disease and the DNA testing for disease are done, you get a more complete health picture. Some breeders do it all, some go beyond that, some do less, some do none.
The more the testing, the more good/normal/clear results, the better odds of your puppy having a lifetime free of these diseases. The smaller the poodle, the more likely health issues will be there, and not all of those have tests yet.

Toy poodles are particularly, but not necessarily commonly, susceptible to (this is the OFA minimum standard)
but there are more genetic issues that can happen so this is where the DNA testing comes in

This is PawPrints Toy Poodle Panel (an independent lab, as is Embark)

Degenerative Myelopathy
Aliases: Canine degenerative myelopathy, DM

GM2 Gangliosidosis (Poodle Type)
Aliases: Sandhoff disease, Type 0 gangliosidosis

Osteochondrodysplasia
Aliases: Skeletal dwarfism, OCD

Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration
Aliases: PRA-PRCD, PRCD

Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Rod-Cone Dysplasia 4
Aliases: PRA-rcd4

Von Willebrand Disease I
Aliases: Pseudohemophilia, Vascular hemophilia, von Willebrand disease type 1, von Willebrand's disease, VWDI

Additional Disease Tests for Toy Poodle

Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk) with or without Chondrodysplasia (CDPA)
Aliases: CDDY with IVDD, CDPA, Hansen's Type I IVDD, Intervertebral Disc Disease

Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures
Aliases: NEWS

Gooddog.com is a good source but it's a starting point. Compare each item on this list to the information they choose to offer on the site.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Poodles 4 Life
Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to $3000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.
I personally wouldn't consider for myself or recommend them. Their prices are simply too high, even if they tested for everything under the sun. It does not cost that much to breed.

Look at the comments I made on the other two you mentioned and compare
What is their goal in breeding poodles? What are they doing to make the Poodle breed better in their program?
What made their family pet an ideal example of poodles per the breed standard to breed?
What are they investing in their dogs? Full health testing? Showing their dogs in competitions to prove they meet the breed standard or competitions to prove their dogs are physically sound and able?

Redhead Heaven Poodles
As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".
Apparently you don't even have to speak with them, in fact they discourage phone calls, or communicate in any way before "ordering" a puppy from them. All you have to do is read something, fill out something then drop your money thru their handy pay link?
A quality, conscientious breeder will absolutely want to communicate with you to see if you're going to love and care for those babies as much as they have. In fact there are usually several conversations or communications back and forth, asking and answering questions before being added to a waitlist or any deposits are accepted.


"We ensure that our lines meet the AKC standards for health, temperament and conformation lines. Using these AKC requirements we pick the best breeding stock available."

How do they do that? What are their qualifications for assessing the AKC standards? What is their criteria for "best breeding stock"? Why is that stud the right one to breed with that bitch? What is the pedigree of their breeding dogs?

They are pricing their toys based on size and using marketing terms that are not breed standards. There is only toy, miniature, or standard.
I've looked at their site before and I thought that there used to be a tab that linked to their breeding females. They are doing some of the testing on OFA, where at least 13 females of breeding age are listed under that kennel name.
That's a lot of litters. A lot.
 
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Peggy Sue, Standard Poodle Born May 2019
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I came across Red head Heaven poodles which is near, but I’m not sure.
Thoughts?
Different prices for different sizes and colours, and it looks like they may offer stud services for doodling. I also copied and pasted some text from their website and it matched text associated with other breeds:

473539


I would proceed with caution. I would not personally consider a breeder with this sort of web presence unless I could speak with them by phone and then visit their home.
 

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Peggy Sue, Standard Poodle Born May 2019
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Here’s another thread that might be helpful for you:


If you Google the Sierra Golden Retrievers contact number.....

473540
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I really appreciate you taking the time to enlighten me on this. Thank you for the bottom of my heart. I will be doing more research into breeders now that I know where to start and what to look for and what to pass up on. I will also post a pic of my baby as soon as I get him. Thank you thank you!
 
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