Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So in the quest for a breeder (an epic at that! :p)
I have come across a few breeders who seem perfect (less pedigrees as I am still learning about that)

Except for one issue which I am very passionate about, I do NOT believe in early spay/neuter and even less in large/giant breed dogs. With these breeders all pups are s/n before they leave, which I think great to help stop pet over population but maybe not in the best interests of their pup's health.

I know this is very controversial but my experiences and research lead me to these beliefs.

Now I feel like I will be for lack of a better word forced to go with a lesser quality breeder for my wants.

Do you think its possible to persuade a breeder for a vasectomy/partial spay instead of a full sterilization? or would I be wasting my time. I plan until roughly 24 months then the proccedure(s/n) will be completed fully.

(did i make sense 0.o i think i confused myself)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,165 Posts
I think you would be hard pressed to find a breeder willing enough to let an unaltered puppy go or extend the age on which it needs to be done.

Not to start anything but have you ever met a dog who has suffered from early sterilization? I honestly think that whatever dog you choose will be just as healthy being altered at 6 month as it would be at 2 years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,498 Posts
In my experienced, I haven't come across any reputable breeders who will let the pups go unfixed until the age of two. I know some Havanese and Maltese breeders that will let you wait until the pup is a year old, but that's about it.

Good luck with your search,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yes, I have actually owned one, he had to be pts at 17 months.


Even one that is partially sterilized?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
157 Posts
Have you looked for breeders who have spay and neuter contracts or only give limited AKC registration until they have proof the pup was spayed or neutered?

That would seem like your best bet.

I don't agree with early s/n, as in any time under 6 months. Also, some consideration for the breed of the dog needs to be taken into account. A lot of people advise against neutering large breed males before they are at least 2 years old because of the bone formation. I'm not 100% sure of the reason, but I remember when I was in a discussion about Presa Canarios this came up.

I personally would never s/n before 6 months of age.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
In short he developed bone cancer by 10months old then it's followers came pancreatic cancer and spleen cancer. He had severe immunological problems, vaccines would send him into either anaphalaxis(sp) or a grand Mal seizures. He was neutered at 8 weeks old when his ears were done. This was extremely young but most of the dogs in his line that were bred by this specific breeder that are s/n early developed this same set of symptoms by the age of 6. he was a Dane by the way. from compeletly health tested lines and proformance rather than show lines.
This was years ago but MANY MANY dane breeders no longer allow their babies to be neutered before 12months and prefer 2 years.
Its a painful memory and none of my dogs since then have been neutered before they have completed growing physically as well as mentally.
This is an interesting website if you wish to look into it further.
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,132 Posts
In short he developed bone cancer by 10months old then it's followers came pancreatic cancer and spleen cancer. He had severe immunological problems, vaccines would send him into either anaphalaxis(sp) or a grand Mal seizures. He was neutered at 8 weeks old when his ears were done. This was extremely young but most of the dogs in his line that were bred by this specific breeder that are s/n early developed this same set of symptoms by the age of 6. he was a Dane by the way. from compeletly health tested lines and proformance rather than show lines.
This was years ago but MANY MANY dane breeders no longer allow their babies to be neutered before 12months and prefer 2 years.
Its a painful memory and none of my dogs since then have been neutered before they have completed growing physically as well as mentally.
This is an interesting website if you wish to look into it further.
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
I’m on quite a few forums and it seems that every time someone wants to defend why they don’t believe in early spay/neuter they throw out this exact website. (sorry, not trying to be nasty - just making an observation:))
This is only an opinion... which is just another point of view.
I do think some of what he says is correct. But I also understand why breeders won’t budge when it comes to spay/neutering their pups.

First of all - they don’t know you. A lot of people who buy ‘pets’ or ‘companions’ never intend to breed their dog... but accidents happen (and it seems to happen a lot). I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “my dog is pregnant what do I do?”
Not even 2 weeks ago I met a couple at an AKC show that told me they wanted to breed their Dobe, just once before they spay her..... they were there looking for a someone to hook their female up with. The first thing that popped into my mind was as I was watching them walk away was: “great, all this breed needs is another byb” Sorry to say... I know my dobes... and she didn’t look like anything I would ever want a puppy to come out of!

If I were a reputable breeder I would want my line to stay clean and early spay/neutering is the best guarantee a breeder has to protect their bloodlines.

Second, I’m sure they don’t want to compete against uneducated people making money off of their hard work and dedication.

There are pros and cons to early spay and neuter - just as there are with waiting a year or two. I'm sorry to hear you had a bad experience, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen again.
It could also be that the fault was in the line they were breeding and not with early spay/neuter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
I purchased Roxy from a reputable breeder on a limited AKC registration. In my contract it says that I will have her spayed. I can't remember the exact timing, but I believe it is around 6 to 9 months.

So, there are breeders out there that will work with you. Early s/n is not necessarily your only option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
546 Posts
My contract also requested that I have Snoops neutered by age 6 months.. however, I expressed my concerns to the breeder and she allowed.. "allowed".. me to wait longer. She took everything I said into consideration and was very accommodating.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,132 Posts
Now I feel like I will be for lack of a better word forced to go with a lesser quality breeder for my wants.
I totally agree with cuddleparty and pm davis... there are breeders that will work with you.
But I don't think you should condemn a breeder and feel forced to go to another just because of early spay/neuter practices, it’s probably what they feel is best for their line and their dogs. And I doubt they would continue the early spay/neutering if they’ve had issues.
I would definitely talk to the breeder that you want to go with initially and see how they feel about the subject and why.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,546 Posts
Vinnie's breeder was good about not doing the early s/n also. Her puppies are sold on limited registration and need to be s/n by a year old, but puppies that are sold to performance homes (like Vinnie) she allows them to wait until growth plates close. Vinnie will be neutered sometime between 18 and 24 months. There are breeders out there that will work with you - you may need to spend some time getting to know them and them getting to know you so they know that you are serious and they can trust that you WILL neuter your dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,165 Posts
You had your Danes ears done at 8 weeks old? I thought it was suppose to be done at about 12 weeks.

Anyway the definition of "early sterilization" is iffy because to me in means altering between 4 and 6 months. To others it means at 8 to 12 weeks.

Question: What are "performance" line Great Danes?

I have seen that site many times and I have a lot if issues with it and it is very misleading.

I am sorry you lost your dog but I think don't "early" spaying and neutering was the cause of its illnesses especially because all the pups from that breeder had the same problem. Not saying ESN did not contributed to his problems but how many other Danes have had problems from ESN?

6 months of age is a perfectly fine age to have your dog altered and it is the age most breeders required they be fixed. But you may talk with the breeder you want and they may be willing to let it go longer. You just have to ask.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thank you for everyone's points of view! thats why I'm here.

It was my vets opinion that the ESN was the major contributing factor to his illnesses. I then I went digging through the lines and contacted other owners who had the ESN and the ones that didn't did not have the issues.

A preformance Dane is a Dane that is slightly smaller and more compacted build (not the leggy flimsy dogs you see in the comformation ring) and are used for what they were originally bred for hunting and protection, I got Remi for Schutzhund.

As far as ears done at 12 weeks is the very cusp of the cropping, the younger the better as young as 6 weeks is what I have heard of. His ears stood up wonderfully and fast. the longer you wait the less likely that they will stand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,881 Posts
You had your Danes ears done at 8 weeks old? I thought it was suppose to be done at about 12 weeks.
I don't have any concrete info on the s/n situation at such a young age.. I would tend to believe that it is not in the best interest of the dog though as it is not advised for horses to be cut too young of age either..... but I just wanted to refer to this question. I had raised Doberman's for many years and twelve weeks is the "outside" age of getting the ears cropped. Six to ten weeks is the preferred cropping age. The reason for this is the pup needs to have its ears cropped before the cartilage starts to firm up. The pup's ears are tapped up after the ears heal during the time the cartilage firms up, that allows the ears to firm up in the standing position. If the ears are cropped too late and the cartilage has already begun to stiffen in the 'down" position, the ears will never stand up. I have seen pups done later (after 12 weeks) and mostly their ears ended up being cropped drop ears which looks awful. I have seen a couple of pups that were done later and with persistence in taping them up the pups ears eventually stood. Just thought I'd put in this info. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,972 Posts
I too am very against early spay/neuter in large/giant breed dogs. I think it's flat out irresponsible to neuter any giant breed or a breed prone to Osteosarcoma and HD before a 12-18 months. (18 months is the generally accepted age in Rottweilers who average about 90-100lbs for males.) Are you looking for a poodle though? I would think 9-12 months would be okay for a Standard Poodle and 6 is fine for the smaller varieties. I think if you find a breeder and are able to explain you views, they would be willing to work with you. Just be ready to have references, maybe a letter from your vet explaining his opinion on your Dane's illness, and plenty of info about the reality of early spay/neuter. (There is more than one study!)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
875 Posts
I wouldnt do it until the dog was 9-18 months but no later
most of the breeders I have contracts with ask that they are neutered at or before 12 months

I had a "pound puppy" who was spayed at about 4 months (previous owners did it not me )
she is on meds every day for life due to spay incotinence so im not on the "by 6 months " bandwagon
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Next question! (I figure keeping this all in the same thread would be better than starting to fill the board)
Are there any bloodlines that I should stay clear of or bloodlines that I should look towards, I'm looking for a breeder in North america so, Canada or the US.
Oh I'm looking for a standard, a fairly high energy line (I walk close to 120km a week, 75miles, plus maybe a dog sport) who wont have shy tendencies, or have too high of a prey drive (within the breed I'd like the lower end of that spectrum) I'm partial to the whites, silver and creams(even though the thought of keeping a coat clean scares me a tiny bit)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,498 Posts
I am also really partial to whites, creams and silvers and if my hubby would say yes, I would be a proud owner of a sliver. There are a lot of great breeders, how far/where are you willing to travel or maybe have your baby shipped. Pinafore has great silvers and whites. Here's their website:
http://www.pinaforepoodles.com/
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top