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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know of any authentic, credible breeders in or around Illinois? I'm finally ready to bring a poodle home and I want to make the most out of this exciting experience! Ideally in the Chicagoland area but I am willing to drive 3-4 hours if needed. I'm looking for a Standard, doesn't matter the color.

Or, if anyone has any feedback on the Stonewick Poodles breeder?
 

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Welcome! There have been previous posts about this breeder that should provide some good info for you. See below. Feel free to ask if you have additional questions about them.

 

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Hi and Welcome!

Many new members are reporting waitlists, which are common in the best of times, running into 2021 for quality, conscientious breeders due to pandemic puppy seekers. It's also possible that you'll need to expand your travel territory.

If you haven't noticed it, there's a Breeder List with a collection of recommendations from PF members. It's worthwhile to review the health testing info, and the various breed clubs, and the multi state listings.

It's stickied in this forum at the very top.

I haven't looked at the thread on Stonewick and I'm not familiar with them but whenever I look at an unfamiliar breeder, I've learned to start with whatever health guarantee/warranty they give. I look at it to see if I could accept and live with the terms, should it come to be necessary.

In it they state "SELLER does not cover... Because a luxating patella, hip dysplasia...can be caused by injury, they are not covered if they are not discovered during your veterinarian's initial examination."

My concern is that these can also be inherited conditions, and those heritable conditions can be tested for before the sire and dam are bred. If they don't pass, they should not have been bred, except under very specific circumstances by a very knowledgeable breeder.

"Canine Hip Dysplasia typically develops because of an abnormally developed hip joint, but can also be caused by cartilage damage from a traumatic fracture. With cartilage damage or a hip joint that isn’t formed properly, over time the existing cartilage will lose its thickness and elasticity. This breakdown of the cartilage will eventually result in pain with any joint movement."

"The patella, or kneecap, is part of the stifle joint (knee). In patellar luxation, the kneecap luxates, or pops out of place, either in a medial or lateral position.
Bilateral involvement is most common, but unilateral is not uncommon. Animals can be affected by the time they are eight weeks of age. The most notable finding is a knock-knee (genu valgum) stance. The patella is usually reducible, and laxity of the medial collateral ligament may be evident. The medial retinacular tissues of the stifle joint are often thickened, and the foot can be seen to twist laterally as weight is placed on the limb.
Patellar luxations fall into several categories:
  1. Medial luxation (toy, miniature, and large breeds)
  2. Lateral luxation (toy and miniature breeds)
  3. Lateral luxation (large and giant breeds)
  4. Luxation resulting from trauma (various breeds, of no importance to the certification process)
Numbers 1-3 are either known to be heritable or strongly suspected.

These conditions, if present, can be mild or can eventually require surgery/surgeries in the several thousand dollar range.
My point here is that these can be inherited rather than caused by injury. Testing of the breeding parents is your best odds for a healthy puppy, long term.

I'm not getting results on the OFA site when searching the names of their sires and dams. If they test, they may use a lab such as PawPrints. If this were my pup search, testing of the parents is something I'd ask about and I'd be using the testing required by OFA to qualify for CHIC certification. Additional testing for other heritable conditions is extremely helpful. All of that info is found on the OFA site or the VIP site. Those links are in the health section of the Breeder List.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Welcome! There have been previous posts about this breeder that should provide some good info for you. See below. Feel free to ask if you have additional questions about them.

So stonewick poodles is a legitimate breeding servivce? (Not a scam)
 

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Not sure what you mean by legitimate, not a scam. Do you mean, "If I put my money down, will I get a poodle?" or are you asking if this is a breeder that would be recommended?

I went thru the website which did not improve my opinion and I did read thru the other thread and saw that the observations were basically the same as mine.

This is not a breeder I would ever consider for myself, nor could I recommend them to anyone comfortably because they don't meet my criteria. If you become familiar in what is expected of a quality, conscientious breeder, and fully understand the risks involved and are prepared financially and emotionally to deal with them, then you can choose the risks you're willing to take.

Here's my personal criteria

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these criteria are important in choosing a conscientious breeder and to get a wellbred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety, do them before breeding and breed only to improve their line.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup

Dog Search
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. The more breeders you speak with, the more you learn, and then you learn what to look for. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks so much for that feedback! I’ve never had a poodle before so i am new to this. By legitimate I mean “if I send a deposit, will I get my poodle”
 

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So now what you need to decide what is the rest of your criteria :).

For starters:

Do you want a poodle from OFA/CHIC (minimum standards) health tested parents so that your poodle will have better odds at a long, healthy life?

Do you want a poodle who has immediate ancestors who have been proven to meet breed standards (conformation), and expectations in being able to perform normally physically (agility), to follow instructions (obedience)?

Do you want a poodle raised in the breeders home, growing up around people and kept with their poodle family til they're old enough to go home?

Do you want a poodle, that if you tell the breeder "I want a poodle who'll be calmer but not be shy" and they'll tell you that the personalities don't really come out til they're as much as 7 weeks old but if they had to tell you right now at 4-5 weeks, they'd say the larger black boy would best fit your needs and to check again at 7 weeks.

Do you want a breeder who will not rule out physical issues that they could prevent by testing the parents?

Do you want a breeder that you'd feel comfortable contacting in five years, ten years, to ask questions of?

Do you want a breeder who wants to stay in touch because they love that larger black boy and hope to hear that you're all doing well every contact?

Do you want a breeder who's reason for breeding is that they love poodles, they want to contribute to the future of the breed by testing and selecting sire's and dam's to strengthen weak points?

Do you want a breeder who will sell a pup with full breeding rights to anyone who has the price of admission? (this is one way indiscriminate breeders get their "registered" breeding stock fyi)

These are just starting points and why the focus is on the breeder. A quality breeder will be there for you thru your pup's whole lifetime. They don't point to the contract and say "I have no responsibility in this". They created this pup.
 
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I’ve never had a poodle before so i am new to this.
Just checking, is this your first time choosing and raising any dog or just poodles are new to you?

It seems that you're leaning towards a standard? What about them caught your intetest?

They're amazing dogs, and quite a lot of dog (not just in size!).

Not to dissuade but to learn thru others, have you looked at some of the posts from first-timers?

They are scattered thru the forum so it might work better for you to start a different thread in Poodle Talk to ask about the trials and joys of raising a standard,
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I answered yes to all of those questions lol. I think my ideal breeder should meet all of those qualifications, do you think the breeder I suggested at Stonewick doesn’t? I have been in contact with them recently, can you suggest a few questions I should ask?

This will be my first time raising a pup! I have a lot of free time on my hands right now that I think will be good for me to bring a puppy home that I don’t think I’ll have in the future. I want a big dog, I’ve always loved poodles and I’m a little sensitive to allergies so I’ve researched that poodles are good dogs for people with allergies.
 

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Hi Caradiamond - I actually posted about Stonewick - I almost went with them and then passed, because they don't do any OFA CHIC testing, and a few other red flags pointed out by forum members. I ended up with a pup from Sunset Maple Poodles in McHenry that I took home on Monday. - while she doesn't show her dogs (which I gather some view as a dealbreaker), they all have health testing done and you can look up the dame and sire in the OFA database - both are CHIC certified - and she tests :

-Degenerative myelopathy
-Neonatal encephalopathy
-Progressive retinal atrophy
-Von willebrands
-Eyes
-Hips
-Advanced cardiac
-Elbow
-Patella

I feel much more comfortable knowing that both the dame and the sire underwent all of this health testing and are healthy dogs vs. Stonewick, where I couldn't find any evidence of testing at all.

This is not an endorsement of Sunset Maple - I don't know enough to endorse anyone - these are just the things I considered when I made my choice.
 

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Hi Caradiamond - I actually posted about Stonewick - I almost went with them and then passed, because they don't do any OFA CHIC testing, and a few other red flags pointed out by forum members. I ended up with a pup from Sunset Maple Poodles in McHenry that I took home on Monday. - while she doesn't show her dogs (which I gather some view as a dealbreaker), they all have health testing done and you can look up the dame and sire in the OFA database - both are CHIC certified - and she tests :

-Degenerative myelopathy
-Neonatal encephalopathy
-Progressive retinal atrophy
-Von willebrands
-Eyes
-Hips
-Advanced cardiac
-Elbow
-Patella

I feel much more comfortable knowing that both the dame and the sire underwent all of this health testing and are healthy dogs vs. Stonewick, where I couldn't find any evidence of testing at all.

This is not an endorsement of Sunset Maple - I don't know enough to endorse anyone - these are just the things I considered when I made my choice.
Thanks for that information! How was it dealing with the Sunset Maple Breeders? After you paid a deposit, did they keep you updated? Did you go pick up the puppy from their location? Did you set up a meeting with them via zoom or in person?
 

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Thanks for that information! How was it dealing with the Sunset Maple Breeders? After you paid a deposit, did they keep you updated? Did you go pick up the puppy from their location? Did you set up a meeting with them via zoom or in person?
I also can't find the total amount for a puppy on their website, how much was she/he?
 

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Many breeders don't put pricing on their website. They want to encourage the potential new owner to make contact first, so they can get to know each other.

On the low end, I'd expect to pay $1500 and on the high end, I'd expect $3000. If they charge more for specific colors, gender or sizes, that's a no go for me. That's more capitalizing on trends, so they're looking at their profit margin first, not the best interests of the poodles.

A quality breeder may charge more for full registration which includes breeding rights. Many of the breeders considered conscientious also show their dogs for the reasons I noted, but the actual number of show potential pups born is far less than the number born. A quality breeder may sell a show potential but it's not likely to be to the general public just because they can pony up the price. Show potential pups are sold with a different contract entirely. The buyer is generally required to have some show experience themselves. They are generally required to show the dog to championships. They are required not to breed without consent of the breeder, and so on.

I really recommend starting the thread I mentioned or looking thru the forums for first-timer experiences. Many have been very overwhelmed by the intelligence and personality of the poodle.

I can't stress enough how important it will be for you, as a first time dog owner, first time standard poodle owner, to get informed about raising a standard poodle before you commit.
It's so important to fully know what you're choosing.
 

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Some breeders not yet added to the List, mostly standards, but not all.

  • Illinois
Bonheur Poodles
Celeto Standard & Miniature Poodles
Safari Standard Poodles Home Page clarify terms in contract, several confusing items. Respected by other breeders
Natalie's Poodles
DuBois Standard Poodles

  • Indiana
Welcome to Azel Standard Poodles

  • Iowa

  • Kansas
Court Hill Poodles | captain-creek-ranch website odd but recommended by a PF breeder/member

Missouri

Harten Poodles | Sharon Svoboda | Poodle Puppies For Sale | AKC Registered Handler
T/S
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I’ve been contacting Dubois Standard Poodles and I like what I’ve seen so far. Does anything on their site seem like a red flag to you?
 

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Hi Caradiamond - sorry for dropping off - more info about Sunset Maple - Laura was very helpful and very responsive. All emails got responses within 24 hours. I did pick the puppy up from their location - it went smoothly - she gave us a bag of food, a toy he slept with, and a folder with AKC paperwork/information/vet records for vaccinations and dewormings.

The poodle cost I think $2140 total with tax - $200 of which was a deposit. Laura updated the Facebook page with photos of the puppies very regularly and generally kept people informed. I'd say my needs as a buyer were well met.
 

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I’ve been contacting Dubois Standard Poodles and I like what I’ve seen so far. Does anything on their site seem like a red flag to you?
I listed them above because I saw that they do some health testing, some dogs are shown in UKC, and some of the pedigree lines names are familiar to me.

I don't research breeders to the fullest degree before listing them, that's where you as the potential owner need to do your homework :).

I went back to the website.

What I look for first is the actual results of health testing of the sires and dams, with links to the online site where the results are published. Then I look for the terms of the contract/health guarantee. Do I understand those terms clearly and can I accept them as is, or will the breeder be open to making amendments if it's in the pup's best interest, eg not to spay/neuter til physical maturity is reached rather than, say, 6m? If the breeder does the minimum OFA testing of the sire's and dam's, why would they limit the guarantee to, say, 1 or 2 yrs, for genetic conditions the parents were tested for - and found clear/normal/good? Some of these heritable conditions don't become an issue til the pup is older than 1-2 yrs. That's why the parents get tested, to try to avoid passing problems down the line.

I'll comment on just a few things.

I see a lot of photos but not a lot of actual information.
There's no information about their breeding program, what their goals are.
There's some mention of health testing, on some sires only, with no links to the testing sites for verification.
There's no information on the dam's at all that I can find.
I can't find a contract.

I next did a search here on PF.


There aren't many threads or posts to look thru, so I'd say it's worth your time to read them since these folks do have either personal experience and/or are knowledgeable.

Overall, no serious red flags. There's some positive information on the site but I'd want more concrete information before I put money down. I'd particularly want to see the health testing results of the parents of the litter I'd be looking at, and I'd want to see the health contract. Since you're already in contact with them, it should be reasonable to ask where you can see that information. Good breeders usually appreciate potential owners who ask good questions, especially when related to the health of their pups.
 
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