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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
*Oops, meant out-crossing, lol, not crossbreeding. Not talking about doodles here!

I know that there are a lot of dogs that are bred to other dogs on either their or their partners pedigrees. They may not be brother and sister, but if there's other dogs in their pedigrees, then they're obviously related.

I guess this isn't always bad? Why and how?


Yeah, I guess I could've made that sound a bit less confusing somehow, lol.
 

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Inbreeding - Where you breed very closely related animals to one another i.e. mother to son, father to daughter, sister to brother. This type of breeding is not recommened, when you breed two dogs with the same line of DNA your gene pool becomes too small and thats when mutations can accure.

Linebreeding - When dogs of distant relation i.e. cousions, uncles, aunts grands, are bred to younger genarations to keep wanted trates in the line. Most dogs are line bred to some extent, there tends tyo be fads of popular sires whom get bred to many bitches prducing many, many puppies all of whom carry his genes.

Out breeding - When two dogs of no or little relation are bred. This is not common but is becoming more so in the resent years. Out breeding can add new blood to a line but it can also add bad blood; meaning you won't know what the two lines bred together will throw you. They could express all of the unwanted traits you have tryed to eradicate from your line. Some Parti breeders are using solid stock to get away from some of the poliuted lines which has its benifits but beiong that a soild is dominent you can loose the white factor and end up with solid puppies who carry the Parti gene and won't bge expressed unless mated to another parti.

Anyway in short, linebreeding is almost unavoidable and can brong many good things to the table, out breeding brings in new blood to offer more genes to pull from, inbreeding should almost never be done.
 

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Inbreeding - Where you breed very closely related animals to one another i.e. mother to son, father to daughter, sister to brother. This type of breeding is not recommened, when you breed two dogs with the same line of DNA your gene pool becomes too small and thats when mutations can accure.

Linebreeding - When dogs of distant relation i.e. cousions, uncles, aunts grands, are bred to younger genarations to keep wanted trates in the line. Most dogs are line bred to some extent, there tends tyo be fads of popular sires whom get bred to many bitches prducing many, many puppies all of whom carry his genes.

Out breeding - When two dogs of no or little relation are bred. This is not common but is becoming more so in the resent years.Out breeding can add new blood to a line but it can also add bad blood; meaning you won't know what the two lines bred together will throw you. They could express all of the unwanted traits you have tryed to eradicate from your line. Some Parti breeders are using solid stock to get away from some of the poliuted lines which has its benifits but beiong that a soild is dominent you can loose the white factor and end up with solid puppies who carry the Parti gene and won't bge expressed unless mated to another parti.

Anyway in short, linebreeding is almost unavoidable and can brong many good things to the table, out breeding brings in new blood to offer more genes to pull from, inbreeding should almost never be done.
IMO More Out-crossing needs to be done ( mostly due to me studying about other breeds suffering from too much linebreeding and watching the BBC purebred dogs exposed). I believe if you wanted to go and out-cross in your breeding program and you find a dog with a great pedigree. It should be fine, Especially if the dog is health tested and you seen lots of pictures or received lots of info on each and every dogs pros and cons within the pedigree. If Enzo passes his health test and we breed him he will not be bred to a dog related to him. I don't think he ever will be only because I believe the red gene pool needs new blood and too much work, due to so many breeder just breeding reds for $$$ and not work or show.

With my cats I breed I have many out crosses and I like the results. I have done little line breeding. The line breeding that I did do also gave me good results.Only one breeding pair I had that I out cross , had bad litters resulting from it. I highly believe even though these two cats where not "related"( long story lol) they where related and this is what cause such a problem with the litters.

I have also notice if I breed the cats that have 5 plus generations to a cat that is a foundation cat with no pedigree the kittens usually will have all the traits from the pedigreed cat only like one or two might not but it is was rare. And of course this is just what I experienced ;) My sister and I have new blood that the other breeders do not have. My breed of cat has a small gene pool o my sister and I have been working on our own bloodline.
 

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Out crossing can be a good thing when you do the proper reasearch just like with anything else.

I have never bred dogs, I raised show rabbits for 10 years and I was mostly going by that exsperence. I did a lot of line breeding and even some in breeding (father to daughter) and had good results.

I think there are many different lines that complament each other with out to much line breeding. I honestly think some line breeding is good but yes in Poodles there are to many large producing kennels that have puppies all over and have now migrated over seas so the gene pool gets a little smaller.

Anyway there are good points and bad points to any breeding and you never really know just what your going to get.
 

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Out crossing can be a good thing when you do the proper reasearch just like with anything else.

I have never bred dogs, I raised show rabbits for 10 years and I was mostly going by that exsperence. I did a lot of line breeding and even some in breeding (father to daughter) and had good results.

I think there are many different lines that complament each other with out to much line breeding. I honestly think some line breeding is good but yes in Poodles there are to many large producing kennels that have puppies all over and have now migrated over seas so the gene pool gets a little smaller.

Anyway there are good points and bad points to any breeding and you never really know just what your going to get.
I agree

A lot of people see inbreeding as bad but I have also seen this practice within apbt and they have had lots of success using this method ( these are old time breeders). Have theories on to why this is good within that breed but I have lots of research to do.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I agree

A lot of people see inbreeding as bad but I have also seen this practice within apbt and they have had lots of success using this method ( these are old time breeders). Have theories on to why this is good within that breed but I have lots of research to do.
With rare and nearly extinct breeds, some breeders don't really have a choice but to inbreed, and I heard that with certain combination's it's not always bad. Like, I heard that father daughter combinations produce much better results than mother son combinations.

One of my friends boyfriends moms breeds brussels griffons, which I'm pretty sure are uncommon. The last litter I knew about, though an accident, was a father daughter combination, and all the pups came out fine. I just giggle when I think that with the puppy she got, his mom is also his sister.
 

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Linebreeding gives you more consistency in a litter. It allows you to double up on all the same characteristics for better or for worse. It is a way to firmly set structure, movement and temperament in a line. It was also a way, back before genetic testing, to see if your line carried a problem.

Back in the day, it was very common to closely linebreed dogs (father to daughter, mother to son, brother to sister etc). The Wycliffe kennel was renowned for this and they were extremely successful in setting a specific type. You could look at a dog and say.... that is a Wycliffe dog. Here is a fascinating article about that kennel:

http://www.dogstuff.info/wycliffe_beginnings_armstrong.html

Here is an example of a Wycliffe dogs today and how very tightly linebred her pedigree is: http://www.coronadopoodles.ca/willow.html

The advantage of the above bitch is that you could then take her and breed her out, but her genes are most likely going to be highly prepotent and you will keep type even with out-crossing.

Today, many buyers have gotten really obsessed with Coefficient of Inbreeding (COI) numbers. In general, a larger breed pool is always better for the long term health of a species (sometimes not true when an inbred quality proves necessary to survival... but I digress...). However, out-crossing is not without its issues.

In poodles, our health issues are wide spread throughout the breeding population so you often introduce health problems that did not previously exist. Out crossing produces mixed physical and temperament results in a litter. Who was it that posted the picture of the grown littermates where one was 27" and one was 24"?

I think a wise course of action for a breeder might be to take a bitch and out-cross to a stud dog who himself is linebred. That way, you have a greater chance of having the characteristics you like come through.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Yeah, I do remember that pictures of the spoos where one was twice the size of the other, crazy! Thanks a lot for all the info cbrand, pretty interesting there. I myself NEVER plan on breeding, but I've only had cats that have had kittens (accidental) and have never been around a dog younger than 6 weeks, so I'm pretty sheltered as far as the dog breeding world goes. It's just fascinating to see what people have to go through to make good dogs.
 

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cbrand that was the best short explanation of line-breeding. I agree it is not a bad thing when you are trying to get the best traits passed along and especially if they are clear of health issues. For Reds the pool is definately small since they started in the 80s but you can see the differences in coat, color, points, etcetera in the Majestic/Highlands lines versus the Palmares/Minarets lines. Since the red line is still relatively new line-breeding and in-breeding with the occasional all-black (no white or cream) breeding introduced, the red line can be enhanced and perfected similar to Wycliffe.
 
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