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Discussion Starter #1
OK ,

I was never fond of "line breeding" but lately I see some breeders doing that with explanation that they know their breeding stock is "clear" of diseases and do not want to risk "polluting" their genetic fund.

BUT - how OK is it actually to breed a Father to daughter :wacko: ???
 

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I am okay with line breeding when its done right. Father to daughter is acceptable, it helps breeders know what they are going to get.

When I bred rabbits 95% of my stock was line bred, when I brought in a new Doe from outside lines it took a few litters with a few different Bucks to get what I wanted in my line and sometimes the Doe was sold if she did not throw what I needed and thought she would bring.
 

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I agree with PP it just depends on what breed and what are the breeders goals . With poodles I don't think i would want a inbred dog since they have so many diseases. So i would be very careful if a breeder claim that their lines are healthy you would have to do research and get references.

But for some breeds such as ADBA apbt's inbreeding is normal.
 

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When I bred rabbits 95% of my stock was line bred, when I brought in a new Doe from outside lines it took a few litters with a few different Bucks to get what I wanted in my line and sometimes the Doe was sold if she did not throw what I needed and thought she would bring.
May be a little off topic, but I think it's so cute how rabbits are called bucks, does, and kittens ^^
 

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May be a little off topic, but I think it's so cute how rabbits are called bucks, does, and kittens ^^
lol the offspring are actually just called Kits but it is fun to refer to them as such.

If it works for that breeder and the dogs are healthy physically and mentally then I see nothing wrong with line breeding but I think its something only to be used by experienced breeders who know their dogs lines.

Now would a I buy a line bred dog? Sure, I have one.
 

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It used to be standard practice to linebreed closely i.e father to daughter, son to mother. It does solidify a line with a certain look, temperament, structure and working style. It can also double up any problems that may be lurking in the line. For better or worse, you are going to see pretty quickly if you have health problems.

Frankly, I'm a bit uncomfortable with parent to offspring breedings. They just seem a bit too close for comfort. I guess I'm alright with uncle/aunt to nephew/niece though, which is silly because genetically are very, very similar to parent/offspring breedings.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks everybody for the input :) !!!

It is just that during my studies we did extensive research of some human "family trees" and it was obvious how easily recessive genes just popped out "like mushrooms" in incestuous cases and even in "second generation" coupling (uncle -nice) and even other "just cousins" weddings etc. :rolffleyes:

Since so many diseases are plaguing poodles it would be maybe better to "diversify" genetic pool but with extreme caution of not introducing carrier of the NEW bad genes in the line - I do not know what to think any more *sigh..

So many things to consider :rolffleyes:- some days I think I will just put a blindfold and pull the name of a knell out of the hat a yell : BINGOOOOO !!!!

Just joking , of course ; ), but it is amazing how many things have to be taken in consideration for responsible breeding and planing *sigh...

Line breeding obviously can produce a "super dog" as well as a heavily effected litter with some upfront unknown existence of a certain bad gene in the line !

Oh well ... search continues LOL

Thanks again for great insight into this matter !!! : )))
 

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Interesting discussion. The breeding I am considering would have the same grandfather on both sides, but complete outcrosses on the other. So I guess the dogs that were bred are half siblings? I debated whether I was comfortable with the breeding and in the end have decided to put my faith in the breeders who are involved, all of whom have a lot of knowledge about poodles. Fingers crossed it works out! Well if that breeding even has a puppy for me that is...
 

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In horses it works to breed the Father/Daughter and Mother/Son but NEVER Brother/Sister. I've seen brother/sister crosses... NOT good.
 

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From just what I have read about linebreeding/inbreeding as a pet companion home, I would turn away from getting a inbred puppy but am comfortable with a linebred puppy from a reputable breeder.
 

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Line breedings generally produce reliable results, reliable on both sides good and bad. You breed good lines you get good results. You want to put some outcrosses in there but sometimes those come with surprises with the combinations of recessive genes you didn't know were there. Similar grandparent on both sides is usually fine if they are good lines. The key is to know whats in the lines and even then there is some guess work, but line breeding isn't a bad thing in fact it produces some of the finer poodles we see today.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks to you too Poodlepal !!! :) It is always great to hear a lot of opinions and learn new stuff !!!!! Thanks !!!
 

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Okay - it's a thread from January. (I've decided to wear my glasses when in this forum so the old eyes can see the small and faint print that gives me the dates.)

Listening to the very top breeders in the late '60s to mid '70s, they advocated both line breeding and in-breeding, but they also advocated "ruthless culling", which meant they would spay or neuter any offspring that didn't improve the breed. These are folks like Becky Mason (Bel-Tor), Jean Lyle (Wycliffe), my very close friend Dr.Jacklyn Boyd Hungerland (DeRussy) RIP all three. I remember Jacklyn spaying a bitch that had a genetic (we think) problem suddenly show up after she had her Championship AND had had a litter. Of course she made sure no dog in the litter reproduced.

When breeders speak of their "line" it means that knowledgeable Poodle breeders, judges, etc can recognize their dogs without checking , i.e., "That's a Wycliffe dog, an Espree dog, a Graphic dog". I have never seen anyone achieve that through random breeding, no matter how high the quality of the dogs. Predicting the results is difficult enough in line breeding, much more so without a strategy.
 

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Can we honestly say that any poodle "line" is healthy? To me it seems that there is always something there even if it's just allergies.
 

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Can we honestly say that any poodle "line" is healthy? To me it seems that there is always something there even if it's just allergies.
No, we can't. Science isn't "there" yet. What we can say is that our breeding stock has been tested for X, Y and Z and found to be Normal.

But establishing a line is about more than health even though health must come first. There really are very well known breeders producing shy Standards for instance. In my view temperament comes immediately after health. In my strategy structure comes third. You can produce a Standard testing Excellent on hips, yet s/he has a back so short that s/he side winds when she moves, or a neck so short s/he can't look behind him/her without turning the entire body. I could go on and on about poor structure and the functional results but you get the idea. I hurt when I see a dog that moves like a crab, or a mix master, or???
 

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I guess my question is for those breeders that think sticking strictly with their own "healthy" line is the only way to go. Why would you not outcross? If a line is never 100% healthy what keeps a breeder from adding something new into it? Is it because when you get type you want you might throw that away for 2 or 3 generations with an outcross? Or is there a worry about temperaments, etc. when outcrossing?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I was once told by very high poodle club official (not local club, lets say "of America" ; ) _ that there IS NO LINE of poodles without health problems - period :smow:.

They just differ in WHAT problems are more prevalent : ((... and excellent breeders know how to work "around them" so they produce mostly healthy dogs.
 
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