[cbrand]

What is OTCH, obviously it's a title, but what specifically is it?

Obedience Trial Champion..... I believe it is the most difficult performance title to get because not only do you have to be able to do the exercises at the Open and Utility levels, you have to BEAT the other competitors who are also competing at that level.

You need 100 points to get the title and you get points based on placing 1-3 (maybe 4th too) and by winning over a certain number of other competitors.

Pat Kadel, who teaches my Obedience class, has put 3 OTCHs and a MACH (top agility title) on three different dogs: Australian Terrier, Mini Schnauzer, and 2 Minis)

 

[jak]

For me, the recall is not something that my Poodles choose to do because they like me, but something that they are trained to do no matter what the distraction. For me this is major safety issue. If you are relying on your dog's good will to return to you, you may encounter a situation one day where something else is more interesting than you and your dog may not come back to you quickly enough.

I used to have a Smooth Fox Terrier (Trixie). This dog was completely obsessed with her frisbee. I would have to say that it was her favorite thing in the world. One day in the park we were playing frisbee and this guy walks up and wants to throw it for her. He totally miscalculates and accidentally throws it into the middle of a busy street. Trixie had taken off after the frisbee and was about to run into the path of an on-coming car. I gave her the recall command and she stopped, turned and came back to me. A well trained recall saved her life.

When I am out on the trails with my dogs, we encounter other off leash dogs (not always well behaved), cattle, deer, coyotes, bikers, runners, equestrians and there is always the threat of bear, moose and mountain lions. Being off leash is a high stakes proposition in Colorado.

I train the recall with a combination of treats, praise and yes compulsion training as a consequence for non-compliance. My dogs learn that the recall is NOT OPTIONAL. I can guarantee that they still love me just fine.

Exactly right, as with any command, Saffy has to do it, recall is definitely paramount, and she'll come back every time, despite the distraction

 

[jak]

Obedience Trial Champion..... I believe it is the most difficult performance title to get because not only do you have to be able to do the exercises at the Open and Utility levels, you have to BEAT the other competitors who are also competing at that level.

You need 100 points to get the title and you get points based on placing 1-3 (maybe 4th too) and by winning over a certain number of other competitors.

Pat Kadel, who teaches my Obedience class, has put 3 OTCHs and a MACH (top agility title) on three different dogs: Australian Terrier, Mini Schnauzer, and 2 Minis)

Wow, that is quite the achievement, I can't wait to start getting into the higher stuff with Saffy, we just double won Special Beginners Obedience, and will hopefully be moving into Novice, sometime in 2010. And I'm confident we'll be able to start higher levels of agility early next 2010, which will be great to get more titles

 

[cbrand]

Wow, that is quite the achievement, I can't wait to start getting into the higher stuff with Saffy, we just double won Special Beginners Obedience, and will hopefully be moving into Novice, sometime in 2010. And I'm confident we'll be able to start higher levels of agility early next 2010, which will be great to get more titles

What exercises do you do in Special Beginners? We don't have that class. What about Novice? Here in the States Novice is:

healing on leash
healing off leash
figure eight on leash
recall
stand for exam
1 minute group sit (handlers still in ring)
3 minute group down (handlers still in ring)

 

[Keithsomething]

I completely agree with Cbrand
I don't think it would be the majority opinion if it wasn't obvious that the prong collar ((when the human is trained properly)) is the PERFECT leash training tool

I've been told that a mis sized prong collar can do some serious harm to your dog, maybe thats why so many people think they're bad?

and they aren't nearly as scary as people let on...they just look scary

 

[jak]

What exercises do you do in Special Beginners? We don't have that class. What about Novice? Here in the States Novice is:

healing on leash
healing off leash
figure eight on leash
recall
stand for exam
1 minute group sit (handlers still in ring)
3 minute group down (handlers still in ring)

I couldn't tell you exactly now, but it goes something like this:
(I'll find out later or maybe FD will chime in?)

Special Beginners (You can only ever enter this if you haven't won it with 72/75 points twice, luckily I only won it twice with 71.5!)

Heel On Lead
Heel Off Lead
Sit/Stays 2 min
Down/Stays 2min
Recall & Finish


I think Novice is this:

Heel On Lead
Heel Off Lead

(obviously more advanced heelwork)

Sit/Stays
Down/Stays

(not sure how long)

Recall with Dumbbell (I think that's how it goes)


Basically only difference between them is:

Dumbbell & Slightly more advanced heelwork (which is actually easier, go figure)

 

[Olie]

Prong collars are very much debatable. I think if supervised and NEVER left on other than for training, it's should be fine. Dogs have died from prong collars and its a sad thing to watch I am sure. I have read about numerous freak accidents with them so therefore that has made me a little afraid of them.

 

[markfsanderson]

OTCHs' UDXs' and other deities of the pantheon!

What is OTCH, obviously it's a title, but what specifically is it?

An OTCH is an AKC (does UKC have an equiv?) award Obedience Trial Champion. It is very very difficult to just get one, the lady that I trained w/in Austin Texas earned 5 - there are those that have earned more (wow!). An OTCH indicates your dog compete at a very high level. Another award, which some believe is more difficult is the UDX - Utility Dog Excellent. It means that you got the green ribbon on the same day for both Utility and Open (wow!) for something like 10 times(?).
In short - this person knows what they are doing!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!

 

[Keithsomething]

Prong collars are very much debatable. I think if supervised and NEVER left on other than for training, it's should be fine. Dogs have died from prong collars and its a sad thing to watch I am sure. I have read about numerous freak accidents with them so therefore that has made me a little afraid of them.

I was horrified when I saw the trainer pull it out and tell me that we might have to use it this spring on Elphie, but with all my friends who have used him for their obedience classes and what I've read I'm not scared one bit now.

but I'd have to wonder if those accidents were human caused because you aren't supposed to leave the prong collar on for prolonged times only for training ((what I've been told by the trainer))

 

[Olie]

I was horrified when I saw the trainer pull it out and tell me that we might have to use it this spring on Elphie, but with all my friends who have used him for their obedience classes and what I've read I'm not scared one bit now.

but I'd have to wonder if those accidents were human caused because you aren't supposed to leave the prong collar on for prolonged times only for training ((what I've been told by the trainer))

Right now it's not something I can do. It's just me. One incident I read about was during training and two dogs got locked, one dog fearful, one aggressive.......IMO the key for these are not to have aggressive dogs on these......because the more pulling the increase of seriously hurting the dog goes up. Also I just cannot see inflicting pain on a dog - and this is exactly what it does. There are so many methods, just not my choice.

 

[markfsanderson]

Collars, Training and other cool things . . .

. . . you aren't supposed to leave the prong collar on for prolonged times (and) (sic) only for training ((what I've been told by the trainer))

Although I'm no authority by any stretch, I would never ever leave a collar of any type on a dog unsupervised. The only possible exception to that would be loose in the house with a well-fit buckle collar . . . but I really don't like doing that either. Collars should always come off when a dog goes into a crate . . . no exceptions!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!

 

[markfsanderson]

Beat, kick me, call me poodle!

Right now it's not something I can do. It's just me. One incident I read about was during training and two dogs got locked, one dog fearful, one aggressive.......IMO the key for these are not to have aggressive dogs on these......because the more pulling the increase of seriously hurting the dog goes up. Also I just cannot see inflicting pain on a dog - and this is exactly what it does. There are so many methods, just not my choice.

I'm trying to imagine how two dogs (one with, one without or both with?) could get locked up? This sounds like a train wreck from the beginning! Incompetent trainers not trained themselves in using prong collars - the only way that I can imagine this happening is if one or both collars were very loose (not fit correctly - for sure!) and during a tussle they got hooked up and panic ensued. I'm sure that most any other animal training devices could be misused and cause harm. Slip chains in a crate, haltis grabbed on and worried by aggressive dogs, you name it - someone/somehow could screw it up!
And you are absolutely correct - under no circumstances ever should an aggressive dog be put into a prong collar - ever! This is yet another indicator of trainer incompetence. If the trainer isn't trained on how to use them - don't use them! They are tool, and the tool user should be trained!
I've actually worn a prong myself - it doesn't hurt a bit . . . It sures feels weird when it is pulled - like a bunch of little fingers pressing my neck . . . (I didn't have any prongs on the larnyx - dogs don't have one!) . . . fortunately dog necks are MUCH tougher and stronger than a human neck! The only way that I can imagine it would hurt is if some sick son of a -beep- sharpened the prongs . . . as they are, they're quite dull. Some prong collars include little rubber 'feet' attached for a further softening effect.
All things considered, prong collars look bad - they look like some kind of medieval torture device . . . That's the reason why they aren't allowed at any AKC event - period. AKC has a public persona to protect, and I don't blame them a bit for banning them. I personally have never met anyone with direct bad experience with prong collars. Research in Germany has satisfied me that prong collars injure dogs less (post-mortem after natural death, prong vs slip shows that prong creates much less trauma than slip) than any other commonly used collars. I'm not sure about haltis, but it appears to me that sudden lunges from highly exuberant dogs could cause also cause spinal trauma similar to that of a slip chain.
Properly supervised and used by a competent trainer slip, prong, halti, etc are all safe in my opinion. Unsupervised and used by untrained owners, any one of them could cause permanent damage to you dog. Don't think for a minute that just because you are using 'collar x' that your dog is suddenly and magically immune from all injury. Under all circumstances, no matter which collar you decide to use - make sure you are trained properly in its usage!

Sorry about the ramble . . . hope I don't raise any hackles . . . I mean no insult, disrespect or 'talking down' to anyone . . . Just my observations!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!

 

[Keithsomething]

Although I'm no authority by any stretch, I would never ever leave a collar of any type on a dog unsupervised. The only possible exception to that would be loose in the house with a well-fit buckle collar . . . but I really don't like doing that either. Collars should always come off when a dog goes into a crate . . . no exceptions!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!

We only put Elphies collar on when we take her for a walk other than that she never has one on xD

the prong collar I'll be using has the little plastic covers over the metal

 

[flyingduster]

What exercises do you do in Special Beginners? We don't have that class. What about Novice? Here in the States Novice is:

healing on leash
healing off leash
figure eight on leash
recall
stand for exam
1 minute group sit (handlers still in ring)
3 minute group down (handlers still in ring)

special beginners in NZ is like a pre-novice class, and once you've "won out" [two first place scores of over 72 points] then you can not enter it again, EVEN WITH A DIFFERENT DOG. It's the one and only class that the owner is scored really, it's a class specially for newcomers to the sport, so there's no seasoned handlers in the class and we're all at the same level.


Special beginners has:
heeling on lead
heeling off lead (both very simple & boring patterns)
recall (a straight line, the dog recalls to a nice present infront of you and finishes)
group sit 1 min (handlers in the ring and facing the dogs)
group down 2 min (again, handlers in the ring and facing their dogs)



Novice here is:
heeling on lead
heeling off lead (still an easy pattern, no combination turns or anything)
recall (same as special beginners)
retrieving their own dumb-bell
group sit 1 min (handlers in the ring but facing away)
group sit 2 mins (again, handlers in the ring but facing away)


In BOTH novice and special beginners you're allowed to talk to & encourage your dog as much as you want throughout the entire heeling, as well as once you've been commanded call your dog on the recall, and after the command to send your dog for the retrieve.

Test A is where extra commands are penalised and it gets much harder (a moving recall, scent, downstay with handlers out of sight totally etc etc)

 

[Olie]

I'm trying to imagine how two dogs (one with, one without or both with?) could get locked up? This sounds like a train wreck from the beginning! Incompetent trainers not trained themselves in using prong collars - the only way that I can imagine this happening is if one or both collars were very loose (not fit correctly - for sure!) and during a tussle they got hooked up and panic ensued. I'm sure that most any other animal training devices could be misused and cause harm. Slip chains in a crate, haltis grabbed on and worried by aggressive dogs, you name it - someone/somehow could screw it up!
And you are absolutely correct - under no circumstances ever should an aggressive dog be put into a prong collar - ever! This is yet another indicator of trainer incompetence. If the trainer isn't trained on how to use them - don't use them! They are tool, and the tool user should be trained!
I've actually worn a prong myself - it doesn't hurt a bit . . . It sures feels weird when it is pulled - like a bunch of little fingers pressing my neck . . . (I didn't have any prongs on the larnyx - dogs don't have one!) . . . fortunately dog necks are MUCH tougher and stronger than a human neck! The only way that I can imagine it would hurt is if some sick son of a -beep- sharpened the prongs . . . as they are, they're quite dull. Some prong collars include little rubber 'feet' attached for a further softening effect.
All things considered, prong collars look bad - they look like some kind of medieval torture device . . . That's the reason why they aren't allowed at any AKC event - period. AKC has a public persona to protect, and I don't blame them a bit for banning them. I personally have never met anyone with direct bad experience with prong collars. Research in Germany has satisfied me that prong collars injure dogs less (post-mortem after natural death, prong vs slip shows that prong creates much less trauma than slip) than any other commonly used collars. I'm not sure about haltis, but it appears to me that sudden lunges from highly exuberant dogs could cause also cause spinal trauma similar to that of a slip chain.
Properly supervised and used by a competent trainer slip, prong, halti, etc are all safe in my opinion. Unsupervised and used by untrained owners, any one of them could cause permanent damage to you dog. Don't think for a minute that just because you are using 'collar x' that your dog is suddenly and magically immune from all injury. Under all circumstances, no matter which collar you decide to use - make sure you are trained properly in its usage!

Sorry about the ramble . . . hope I don't raise any hackles . . . I mean no insult, disrespect or 'talking down' to anyone . . . Just my observations!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!

I'm certainly not offended, I just stated where I am on the use of them Do a google search there is a lot of information out there on these particular collars. I can see more experienced trainers using but the average pet owner can fall into some statements you made, not bad just not knowledgable.hwell: If all it feels like is fingers why the all the little prongs, why not flat one inces prongs that wont hurt the dog when yanked? Why not just use a leather one or any other regular one?

 

[markfsanderson]

Evil Prong thingies . .. .

I'm certainly not offended, I just stated where I am on the use of them Do a google search there is a lot of information out there on these particular collars. I can see more experienced trainers using but the average pet owner can fall into some statements you made, not bad just not knowledgable.hwell: If all it feels like is fingers why the all the little prongs, why not flat one inces prongs that wont hurt the dog when yanked? Why not just use a leather one or any other regular one?

Thanks for not being offended Well, I 'pop/release' - I don't 'yank' . . . the difference is that a pop carries no weight . . . a 'yank' has follow-thru and weight. The tips of the 'fingers' are dull . . . but as mentioned before, this collar simulates 'mom' with a canine neck scruff rebuke. She doesn't draw blood - and neither does the prong. Leather 'prongs' can't do the job of platic, metal or some other stiffer material. Yeah, its ugly . . . but it works!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!

 

[wishpoo]

This is really interesting discussion ... I saw a video of a prong collar training and it was enunciated about 20 times that those collars OPEN immediately if any pull move is made and that dog can get loose if you accidentally pull on the leash too fast :rolffleyes: !!! So, how than they can "lock" 2 dogs and not make a automatic "release" :scared: or "choke" dogs to death ??? Really strange :rolffleyes:

 

[Olie]

A link on the proper way and best uses of the prong collars.
http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

Also there are multiple stories on the dogforum.com about prong accidents.

AGAIN, it's not that I disagree completely it's not something at this time that I will allow. I have to have solid proof on anything before I consider it. it took me until I was 30 to get in a planehwell:

If I can train my dogs and have them trained without - it's what I chose

 

[markfsanderson]

You can't be too safe . . . great idea

A link on the proper way and best uses of the prong collars.
http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

Also there are multiple stories on the dogforum.com about prong accidents. . . .

Skepticism about any stories you hear on the internet is always wise . . . I don't know a thing about dog forum - but I would treat them with skepticism as well . . . and come to think of it - treat what I have to say with skepticism!!! I like the safety collar that they use, I'm going to start using that myself when I do use the prong . . . great idea! I've never had a dog get away while using the prong, for outside training with no fences . . .not a bad idea. Normally I have a prong with a short (12") lead attached and initially just hook my leash to a slip chain. When an attention-getter is necessary I can grab the short lead and 'pop-release'. If the dog is very exuberant, I quickly switch over to the prong and make it the active collar . . . Good stuff!

Thanks!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters

 

[roxy25]

I have used prong collars on my dogs and I never had any kind of accidents with them. I also use correction chains with no problem.