Input about Gina Bryan's Going Poodles in Georgia

I have some reservations on some things.

First is that she's asking different prices for these reasons:

The price depends on the size they are charting, conformation, coat color, and pedigree.

1/ I see that as pricing based on marketing trends. It does not cost more to breed a larger or smaller puppy (just how small does she go? health issues can add up as size goes down).

2/ It doesn't cost any more to breed one color over another

3/ conformation? It will cost more to have a pup who was bred to be closer to the breed standard? All pups should be bred to the breed standard. If she's showing, and pups are born with or develop a "show fault", then limited registration (no showing in conformation, no breeding) will usually be priced lower than a show potential puppy, which may be the goal with every litter but won't be the reality.

4/ pedigree? It's not clear what she means by this. Is she showing her own dogs and winning titles? Again, this is what a breeder should be doing, to show their own dogs meet the breed standard. If she's asking more because a dog a generation or three back won a title, that's a random title and doesn't constitute "championship lines". A pedigree is nothing more than a family tree.

If her intent is to charge more for full registration (essentially to show the dog in the conformation ring and to give breeding rights), more money isn't unusual. What would be unusual would be to sell a pup with full rights but not require a co-ownership contract so that she will maintain some say in what happens to her line.

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I saw no evidence of testing on OFA, using the kennel name or what seems to be the registered (which registry?) of the dams and sires listed.
DNA testing is great, but is only part of the health picture per the standards recommended by the Poodle Club of America.

Toys should be tested for:

Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test
DNA based test from an approved laboratory ➚
Eye Examination
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
Patellar Luxation
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚

because these are the issues more likely to develop in toys. This is not to say they're common, just more likely. If she's done this testing to the OFA requirements, it's odd that the results aren't listed.

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We offer a 5 year health guarantee. The health guarantee is valid as long as puppies are on the specific nutrition program that I give them at the time of departure.

I'm very leery of a breeder who requires that I feed something specific or their "guarantee" is void.

What if the dog develops allergies or other reactions to that specific nutrition program? What if you can't get it? Is it a specific diet or is it a supplement? If a supplement, are you encouraged or required to buy it thru them?

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The thing is, I'm assessing her by my criteria for a quality breeder. I see caution flags and pitfalls.
But.
If I knew the risks, have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance,
knew that I'd likely not give whatever "specific nutrition program" was required by the breeder
and therefore void whatever health guarantee they offer,
and also likely voiding any other breeder support,
basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands,
I might proceed.
But.
I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, which she is asking, and above, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.

I gave the short version of my criteria in your other post. This is the longer version

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing in other activities or by breeding from titled parents.
It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
Dog Search
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO
Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! puppies are not sold with full registration (breeding rights) simply for the price of admission
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
does the contract/guarantee/warranty rule out covering conditions the parents should have been tested for
do you fully understand the terms of any contract/guarantee/warranty and can you live with them
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right.
The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Here's her PawPrint Breeder page. Several females here are too old or at the cusp of too old to be breeding so I'd want to know more.
Paw Print Pedigrees - Breeder Profile (pawprintgenetics.com)

We here at Going Poodles are breeder's of AKC Toy Poodles which include the "descriptive sizes" of Large Toy, Toy, Tiny Toy, and Teacup. We are not a kennel. We are a small home based breeder.** All our poodles are part of our family and sleep in our room and our puppy nursery is located in our room also. Our puppies are started on house training and manner's prior to leaving. We use the highest quality fresh pet food for all our pet's. We guarantee top quality, beautiful, healthy puppies.

Also note that here, she's listed in Pueblo Colorado. Her FB page also mentioned something about going home to Colorado, and also has a post about guardian homes.**

FB quote
**We do have several guardian homes

My father in law is a vet and my husband is in Vet school, so I have done much of the testing required through my father in law. Although I know I haven't completed all of them due to covid and that delay, but I intend to.. I do give what is completed to people who buy from me.
Price difference in size makes sense because lets face it, smaller dogs cost more than larger ones and the demand for them is way more. Plus the time and effort I spend with them being so much smaller is way more than I need to with larger poodles.
Cost depending on pedigree is because I do have 2 males from all champion sired lines from a show breeder who is my friend, so it depends on if the pups are from that line.
Cost having to do with coat color and conformation makes sense too because unusual colored pups like agouti I feel are way harder to find so I do sell them fir more. Some colors are more basic, but my prices really depend on conformation as ones who are pet home quality are often cheaper. But one being Biught to show I have seen show breeders sell for much more, not finished or anything. Just can be shown.
My health guarantee makes sense as I have had people take a pup and feed it a real crappy food and it happened to be a recalled food at that time and the puppy got extremely ill from it and nearly died. After that I decided to research and do lab testing on foods to see how good they actually are and had no recalls. So why wouldn't you want to base your guarantee off of if they take care of the puppy truly with great nutrition especially if you have proof of how good is really is? Especially since 85% of diseases are nutrition related. Even if you adopt a child you sign an agreement to do certain things as a parent to that child in order to adopt them. I truly see my dogs as my babies and if the people are unwilling to feed a high quality food, and take care of that pup like I would then I do not sell to them. But I am also flexible if they can prove to me they are feeding either a really great balanced diet through a holistic vet etc that is better than what I have found I will still give a guarantee. I have the right to tie my guarantee to the care they will take with that pup. Heck, we all have certain criteria of things we put in our contracts they must agree to, why not nutrition, since it truly is important isn't it? Would you want to guarantee the health of a pup they were feeding twinkies to or junk food? That is what most commercial food is.

And the fact that I am listed in Athens GA is because my husband is in Vet School there at UGA and I am back and forth from there and Colorado because my family is in Colorado and I take care of my aunt and mom often and my guardian homes are in Colorado who have several of my dogs.

As far as my PawPrintGenetics profile I have some breeding females who retired on there as I do need to update the info but don't often keep up with that page as far as updating it. I do have several about to retire, and I have kept several of them I retired. Also, I need to update it in the fact we do the entire panel recommended as well as the extras on there. That includes the PRA/PRCD, And my contract does give a lifetime guarantee in all testing done. And replacement of pup if knees etc are bad. But haven’t had one yet that didn’t pass OFA with other breeders testing them yet. etc.my father in law does check their legs, elbows,, and hips thoroughly prior to our breeding them. Although as I said. I have insisted on OFA and when I am able to I will do it with certification as through him I don’t get that. He doesn’t get requests often for it so he doesn’t get the paperwork for it anymore. But he does know how to do it. As far as anyone saying you have to show or do agility to be a good breeder I disagree. As my husband is in vet school that is my priority right now. Not showing. I don’t have the money or time to do that currently. But I buy often from those who have shown and have quality dogs. Maybe in future.
Anyways, I do appreciate the constructive criticism as it does help me grow and continue to improve my program. I do need to finish doing the OFA which my father in law says is really unnecessary on small dogs, however, I have insisted on it multiple times. So that is my next step. Same with the ACVO. It's just difficult right now to schedule those and I was covering my husbands rent and Utilities during Vet school part of the time, especially during the summer when he is volunteering at vet offices to learn surgeries. I too want the breed to be a good quality and aim for that in my breeding program.

A person buying a poodle pup, should expect a breeder to be doing something with their dogs conformation, agility, scent work or hunting, not just breeding and selling cute puppies, the parents of the puppies sound be health tested for soundness, in the case of toys or miniatures a OFA exam for good knees, PRA, through OFA/CHIC.
A luxating patella surgery runs about $4k per knee in the northeast
Progressive Retinal Atrophy is a disorder that leads to the eventual blindness of an afflicted dog.
The only way these can be prevented, and they are genetic and passed down, is not to breed affected dogs.
If you intend on buying a purebred dog, mak sure it is a well bred dog, not all pure breeds are well bred and not knowing the difference can lead to a lot of heartache and expense.
I made a mistake in buying "just a pet" poodle, whom I love dearly for $750.
This darling girl has cost me now $24,000 in her seven years, was a short legged long body adorable puppy, her luxating patellas showed up at 6 months resulting in surgeries at 16 months and just shy of 3 yrs, the rest of her health issues have a genetic component, although not tested for, kidney disease, urinary tract disease diagnosed at 4 yrs.
The cancer tumor removal combined with a umbilical hernia repair at age 5
Thyroid diagnosed at age 6
Gallbladder blockage and liver issues at age 7.
Compare this with my boy I spent $2500 buying from a companion show breeder who does the appropriate testing, yes my boy retained baby teeth but he is happy healthy and active he has no health issues, takes heart worm medication but that is it.
Both my girls are not from good breeders and the ancient chi mix is from a pet store, she was my mother's dog, have to take 12 different medications daily, you would think that would be mostly the old dog for old age things, nope the old dog takes meds because she us poorly bred and has bitten people so she has meds to help with her inappropriate aggression.
My other poodle 6 1/2 yrs has IVDD, distachsis and severe food intolerances. This little girl is long bodied too, I have to have ramps and rugs down for her, she also see an ophthalmologist twice a year. Yep ~$7k on medical bills.
I paid money for my girls, I didn't get them from a rescue, I didn't do due diligence. My girls suffer although I try my best to make sure the life is the best they can live.
Never again
I tell my story so people will know, as soon as Beatrice's breeder was told about the bad knees, my number was blocked.
A breeder should support you, help you and not ignore bad news.
Never again
I learned the hard way, I will never buy "just a pet" poodle again, I have two breeders picked out that do all the testing, one goes above and beyond. Champion parents, whose parents were chmpions, ot titled parents, as in agility and rally.
Or I will go through a poodle rescue, knowing that a dog might not be in the of health or have best genetics going .

Does "AKC" mean a quality dog?
A lot of puppy ads proudly proclaim that their puppies are "AKC" puppies. The initials "AKC" stand for American Kennel Club. The AKC is the leading breed registry in the United States of America. The assumption, often by both the seller and the buyer is that if the puppy is an "AKC" puppy it must be of high quality and healthy. It would be a wrong assumption, as the AKC explains on their web site at AKC Veterinary Outreach Program – American Kennel Club
A "purebred dog" is a dog that comes from parents of the same breed - that is all. In the USA if the sire is a German Shepherd registered with AKC and the dam is a German Shepherd registered with AKC then the puppies can be registered with the AKC. It has to do with lineage, not quality, not fitness, not health - just the pedigree, the ancestry, the parentage of the dog. If both parents are AKC registered and are of the same breed then the puppies are also eligible for registration. They can be high quality healthy puppies, or genetic nightmares - it doesn't matter just so long as the parents are registered and of the same breed. At least one state, California, requires breeders to disclose this to buyers. CALIFORNIA CODES HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE SECTION 122300-122315 (See ARTICLE 3. Dog Pedigree Registries [122300 - 122315]



Well, why can't the AKC guarantee quality?
The AKC is not a governmental agency. It has control over its registration policies, but that control has been limited by legal challenges. Do I think there ought to be more requirements before a dog is eligible for "papers"? Yes, absolutely. Do I think it will ever happen? Nope, not in my lifetime. Too much politics, plus greed, plus the American dislike/distrust of government control, plus too much variation in opinion as to what is "doing right" by dogs all equals bloody unlikely.
Some breed clubs have been able to achieve some improvements, with varying success depending upon the breed club. The differences are most notable among breeds that are not AKC recognized, but even there politics and disagreement significantly interferes with achieving the goals. So we are left with education about the system we have, and how to use it to best effect.



If the label AKC doesn't mean quality, then why bother?
A breed registry, such as AKC, provides a centralized location for maintaining records on pedigrees. A pedigree is the ancestry of a dog. For many dogs the pedigree is unknown. That makes it more difficult to predict the various qualities in that dog. Keeping good records of a dog's pedigree allows better understanding and tracking of both good and bad qualities that appear in dogs. In some cases the appearance of a genetic defect can be traced to a single dog. Often genetic defects do not appear until after the dog has matured and been bred. The ability to trace pedigrees with some accuracy allows a better basis for breeding decisions.


OK, So then what do I look for to get a quality dog?
Dog shows and performance events are the primary means of evaluating the qualities of the dog. Success at these shows is not a requirement before breeding, and it is not a requirement to make the puppies eligible for registration.
Conformation shows evaluate movement, size, coat, color, dentition etc. Conformation shows do not necessarily evaluate health, although there are plenty of health problems that will result in being ineligible for the show ring. Understanding what conformation shows can, and cannot, evaluate is important. They evaluate far more than their detractors presume, and they evaluate less than their proponents often believe.

Performance events help evaluate the abilities of the dog - depending upon the kind of event - its ability to use its nose to track a scent, to jump, to climb, to turn quickly, to swim, to run for long periods, to accept and respond to instruction, and more. Performance events likewise do not directly test for health, although again there are plenty of health problems that will either make the dog ineligible or will seriously interfere with performance.

Success in both the conformation ring and in performance events tends to reflect upon both good health and good temperament because both these qualities enhance success in those cases. Nevertheless neither health nor temperament can be presumed by success in competition. Participation in competition is merely one piece of evidence that dogs being bred are being bred with care and attention to health, temperament, and conformity with the expectations of a person looking for that particular breed.

It is critically important that people be able to select breeds that match their expectations. A person who is unwilling or unable to provide a Border Collie what it needs may nevertheless be a excellent companion to a Basenji. It is, therefore, important the qualities of the dog be predictable. A breeder who is involved in competition is more likely to know what are the expected qualities for the breed. And the competition itself helps both the breeder and the buyer evaluate those qualities on a less emotional basis.



Well they are from "Champion Bloodlines". That's pretty good, isn't it?
Not really. When someone uses the term "champion bloodlines" it normally means that the sire and dam of the puppies has never been shown at all. If the sire and dam had been successful in either the performance or conformation arena don't you think the breeder would be happy to mention it? Should this make a difference to you? Is there any reason you should care if the sire and dam were successful in competition? See above. Success in competition helps you evaluate the health and temperament of the puppies, but is no guarantee. The main advantage of looking to success in competition is that the qualities are evaluated by a more neutral party than the breeder. If there is no objective evaluation you will have to come up with another way of evaluating qualities that are important to you.
Someone who uses the term "champion bloodlines" is suggesting that you should be pleased about it. A knowledgeable breeder would know that it isn't very meaningful and would explain how they have evaluated the sire and dam in the absence of competition. Usually they will also explain why they have not been competing.

The "champion bloodlines" might be of some help in evaluating the puppies if most of the recent generations have such evidence of success. The thing to know is that nearly all litters have at least some puppies that make wonderful pets but can't be successful in competition. If you are looking for a pet what you want to know is if it makes a difference to the health, and temperament of your dog, or any other qualities that might be important to you. Some parts of the breed standard don't affect the health of the dog, others might. It isn't always obvious which is which. So if the breeder doesn't know this information and you want one of their puppies it will be up to you to know what is important and what is not.



Is there anything else?
Well yes, there are other things to think about. For example, as noted above soundness of temperament and health can't be determined by AKC registration nor success in competition. You, as the buyer, must become familiar enough with the breed to know what genetic health problems may occur, and what the breeder should be doing to try to avoid them. You may also wish to consider ethical issues, such as whether the breeder is taking steps to avoid contributing to the numbers of dogs killed every year because the owners are unable or unwilling to provide what the dog needs to remain a member of the family. For more information see the Breeder's Ethics page, Registries offer more than just papers and the AKC Responsible Breeder, Getting Started Series. Also this excellent article on Kennel Blindness.