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this topic so far was GREAT, it was (meant to be) about Ian Dunbar seminar and workshop and not to pick fights and arguments or badmouth other members.......
must be my poor command of english, but i don't see any badmouthing in stating that one perceives some people as persistently sniping. it's an honest description of one's perception.

So far I haven't seen lily cd re nor Carley's mom attacked.... they are not being attacked personally, noone says nasty things directly about them.

:lol: the method employed is to throw dirt on them by referring to the techniques they have described using as morally repugnant, among other objective descriptions. it's vilification by innuendo, and everybody knows very well what's going on.

I still maintain, there was no need to ruin a perfectly good topic with this argument. There could have been a new topic created just for this if you feel it's that important.

ok now I'm really done...

Shame about this topic being sidetracked.

lily cd re did say not to bother to reply.
 
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It's utterly shameful that Lily cd re feels obliged to submit a resume' in order to receive a smidgeon of civility from those who hold divergent opinions to hers.

I am hopeful she will continue her installments as my geographical area doesn't afford me the luxury of attending seminars such as this. Though truthfully I couldn't fault her if she chose to avoid ridicule and ended this thread entirely.

Why on earth the moderators of this site don't offer two distinct sub-forums for subscribers to chose from when it comes to discussions on training modalities in order to prevent this nonsense continues to allude me. One could label them something along the lines of "The Poodle Den," for polite exchange of diametrically opposed ideas, or "Off Leash Mayhem," where you enter at your own peril recognizing it's a free-for-all. Of course a simple rule of engagement would have to be defined for both: you either abide by the constraints or lack thereof for each or you're banned from the board. As it currently stands, any question posed on the topic is likely to start a war between the factions and stymies the learning process for everyone. Sad.
 

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don't be shy, atlflier. tell us how you really feel! :female-fighter: :biggrin1:
 

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Discussion Starter #25
New Ian Dunbar tip

Sorry to have been away from this topic. It was final exam week (actually still have two to give on Monday, plus the grading). I also had a funeral for a retired colleague who passed unexpectedly after only recently being diagnosed with cancer.

Today's topic is using food in training.

Dr. Dunbar advocates using food as a lure for teaching a behavior to puppies very limitedly. Let's say you want to teach sit. Show food to the puppy and then raise your hand so puppy looks up to follow the food and sits. Give the food promptly along with praise. Repeat several times (like not more than five) and then use the signal to lure the sit with no food in your hand. If the sit is very fast pull out a couple of treats and give your praise. After a few more trials, lose the food completely. Use just the praise and quick releases to go play or have some other life reward as your major training methodology.

For adult dogs, Ian recommends all or none reward training. Food is only used for the best responses for the behavior ordered, such as super fast sits or lightning speed recalls. Use food for those, but not for slow or sloppy responses. For example if you want a sit at front, no food if the dog sits crooked.

This perspective from Dr. Dunbar is based on his belief that the dog should work for you because of its centripetal attraction for you rather than because you are bribing the dog. Ironically at the workshop there were quite a few people who shoveled food (chicken, cheese hot dogs and such) into their dogs nearly non stop and for no apparent reason. In addition to thinking the use of food in training should be limited, Ian thinks you should just use your dog's kibble for training. I will admit that I have fed a fair amount of cheese and other high calorie greasy stuff to both my dogs while training. I had bought a bag of Zukes minis to use with Lily for the workshop. When we were walking out on Saturday evening I put my gear bag with the treats down on the sidewalk when I stopped to talk to someone. I wasn't paying attention and didn't realize that Lily was having a feast at my feet. I didn't have a chance to replace them to use on Sunday. I used kibble (and really just a tiny bit of it) that day and Lily was happy to get it, but even happier to work with me because it pleases her to do so (yes I am being a bit anthropomorphic here, but so what). So free yourselves of your bait bags (and clickers and any other tool you use as a crutch for yourself or a bribe for your dog) and "train naked." Use your voice and help your dog to understand what you want.
 

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I love these posts on what you are learning thanks!


I tried the lying down on the ground and telling Chell to 'sit' and she lay down on the ground beside me and looked me in the eye all 'Mommy why you be so crazy?!' it was pretty funny. So then I went and got the camera to see if she'd do it again but nope she Sat properly the 2nd time. :p

and I always loved Ian Dunbar's bite inhibition technique... there's one video I saw where he's explaining how you just decrease the pressure that is 'acceptable' until the dog thinks "Wow these humans are really mamby pamby! I have to be very careful with them!" So when we had to remind Chelly of her bite inhibition after the in-laws were here and let her bite harder than we do.... She exactly gave me that look! Just this "Geeze Mom yer such a mamby pamby!" I had to try my hardest not to burst out laughing!
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Isn't that just a poodle for you though to figure out things so fast that Chell outsmarted you on capturing the wrong behavior for posterity?

I had Lily at a conditioning class last night where we do all sorts of things on air pillows and fit paws peanuts, etc. The name of the place where this class is held is Martial Arfs. Lily already has a yellow belt in Karrufte so we do things with extra challenges with her to try for green. We had two stacks of fit paws discs that were three discs high. She was supposed to get up with front feet on one, back feet on the other then step across to have all four on one stack. Then she was to turn around and reverse the pattern to front feet on one stack, back feet on the other. She go it after three tries and for the other trials I din't even have to tell her what to do!

Poodles are just the best. The guy who owns the center has border collies so he is used to fast smart dogs. He is very impressed by the poodles who come in and there are a number of us (Lily plus 2 other standards and at least 3 different minis).
 
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Any further installments Lily? I've been away engrossed in McConnell's book at thought to check back in to see if there were any updates. Sorry, some of us have to live vicariously through you and the seminars you can attend. :laugh:

BTW can you recommend any of Dunbar's online videos?
 

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Love this thread! Thank you for posting the helpful tips you've been learning about at the workshop. I am looking forward to training with Ruby on recalling. It is very important that we work on this and hopefully she will catch on.

Also, I think it is so awesome that you we awarded by the chancellor! Being a SUNY student myself, I recently had the honor of interviewing students who got her Students' Award of Excellence for my campus newspaper. It sure is a small world! :)


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Those hungry for more Dr. Dunbar right now to hold them over might visit Dog Star Daily I first learned of him from fjm here a few years back. I've been on a steady Dunbar diet ever since! :eating: I too enjoy getting the inside scoop from forum and real life pals who attend his workshops. He seems to be on the talk circuit lately, so hopefully more people will have the chance to hear him.:dog:
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I brought a computer with me, but I am having a hard time staying on the hotel network tonight. I will be adding more, but probably not for a couple of days.
 

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lily cd re, thank you so much for this thread! Your manner of writing is so clear and easy to understand (it's easy to see that you are a great teacher!). I'll be watching this thread for more!
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Since CharistmaticMillie posted in another thread about early puppy socialization I will add to her thinking here with some Ian Dunbar wisdom on this subject. Dr. Dunbar has some very interesting (and I am sure to many breeders unusual thoughts) about breeding.

First he thinks that no bitch should be bred before she is three years old. He also thinks dogs should be at least seven and preferably 10 years old before they sire a litter. He feels that true expression of temperament and actual phenotypic expressions of hidden genes can only be revealed by waiting. In terms of the sires he believes that if the dog is not physically sound enough to mate then his genes shouldn't be propagated by artificial insemination. These views are founded in Dr. Dunbar's belief that the best indicator of genetic vigor is longevity. I am sure these ideas are raising eyebrows on many breeders who may be looking at this. I will be interested to hear what you have to say in response.

Another critique that Dr. Dunbar has for breeders is that many do not adequately socialize their pups before sending them to their forever homes. Trillium and Arreau's recent litter being notable exceptions here, as I am sure many of you loved watching those puppies play with each other, Trillium's other dogs and all of the folks who came through her home while the pups were with her will recall. Dr. Dunbar stressed the importance of trying to eliminate various subliminal bite triggers with neonatal handling and socialization by many different people. Breeders should make sure that many different people touch all of the following things as many times as possible before puppies leave their kennel: collars, both ears, tail, all four feet and the privates (or as Ian calls them the goolies). Also puppies should be acclimated to getting hugged, making eye contact with people and be used to having people take away treasured objects (special treats and toys with those things being returned as a reward for willing surrender). He also thinks puppies should be exposed to many different kinds of people: men, women, children; black, brown, white, asian; elderly folks with wheel chairs and walkers; weirdos. People should be aware of how a puppy or dog is physically feeling and should be taught to accept handling even when they are sick (Think about your dog's reputation when you go to the vet. My childhood beagle had a bad one and I was mortified when I took her by myself for the first time and saw the tech make a snarly face at the vet when he was about to start trimming her nails in front of me. They went in the back and I am sure they muzzled her to do the nail clip. My current vet lies on the floor with Peeves and Lily willingly follows him around the hospital.)

Ian thinks puppies should go to their permanent homes earlier rather than later, even as soon as six weeks, but certainly by seven weeks. He thinks breeders should send pups to their new homes with good motivation to chew toys, fully housebroken and with soft mouths.
 

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This is really interesting lily cd re! The breeder of my puppy (Avalon) told me the dam is 4 years old and this is her first litter. I thought that was awesome because obviously her health testing has been pretty thorough (other readers here had already mentioned that Mary has a wonderful reputation and in fact this is why I sought her out when I was finally ready to get my own puppy). The extra benefit of a more mature dog in terms of temperament etc is now looking even more important - and of course longevity. Although 4 years is a bit young for the longevity test, I guess looking at the Dam's and Sire's parents and ancestors can help answer some of those questions?
One thing I am a little concerned about it puppy socialization while still at the breeder. Mary was up front that she has no young children around and socialization may be somewhat limited there to people, although there are plenty of other dogs and other animals (it is a farm). However, she urged me to come back and visit at 5 weeks or as often as I like and I plan to go back at 5 weeks with one of my (adult) sons. I also imagine there will be other prospective owners who will be in and out to visit the farm, meet the puppies and so on - so the socialization may not be as much of a concern as I fear. Ideally, I would like to pick up my puppy slightly before the 8 week mark (June 26), but am unable to do so for other reasons - my daughter is arriving on the 26th with her own dog, who I cared for for a year and considers my home her home, too. My feeling is that it is better to delay bringing the puppy home until the 28th (when daughter and dog have left for a wedding in another state), allow my puppy to become acclimatized to her new home and then introduce her to my daughter and the other dog when they return after a week.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
nifty we first visited Lily's litter at five weeks. It is a great age to start to see their personalities blossoming. Don't worry about meeting Dr. Dunbar's 100 people goal on the nose. It is something to aim for. Even if you don't get enough children in those first weeks meeting other kinds of people in numbers will make your pup more adaptable to taking in what kids are about later on.
 
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I can attest to early socialization by the breeder being important. We got Max when he was 6 months old and although he is a wonderful dog, he is very shy around strangers and very reactive around other dogs. He was in the breeders house with litter mates and other poodles but I don't think he was socialized well around other people or dogs. The funny thing is that he jumped up on my lap when I first met and was very relaxed in the breeder house.
 
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