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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am looking into getting a female standard. I have a toy poodle that I got a couple months ago and LOVE HIM TO DEATH! I have been looking into standard poodles for the last year, planning on eventually getting one. My mom is in the nursing home with Alzheimer's and loves cats, dogs & horses and I wanted to be able to have a poodle to bring to the home when my sister and I go every week and take her out. I saw my little guy and fell in love and my mom was with us and she was thrilled with him so I got him. She calls him "her dog" and thinks that she bought him.....she always says to us when we take her out that she never thought that she would get a dog like him. It makes my heart feel so good that it makes her happy. And, he is so dear to me. He has an underbite and is going to be neutered next month, but he is my baby.
This is Jester (kinda blown out with the flash..sorry)
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And him and my sister's dog with our mom in the nursing home.
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Well, I guess I am getting side tracked. About the standard. I still want a female standard and have been looking at web sites and info for months now and have looked around my area for good quality puppies for sale as I prefer to see the pups myself and not just pick one out on the web and have it shipped to me. I found a litter with an excellent pedigree, father is a UKC champion and has Ch. King's Champagne Taste... here is his pedigree http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=134567.
This is the father:
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The mother's pedigree I need to show in the her mother's and father's.
Mom: http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=333561
Dad: http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=132883
I don't have a pic of her yet. She is a blue.

Now, my question/concern is, the pups did not voluntarily come up to any of us to be pet. Oh, I should say the pups are 3 1/2 months old. They were not afraid of us but did not seem interested, even when we called to them, sat on the floor and patted the floor, walked across the room calling them, etc. They did occasionally give us a "drive by" hello. They didn't walk/trot around with their tails down or anything like that, they had them up and happy looking. If we pulled the puppy to us and pet them or rub their belly, they didn't struggle to get away but didn't look us in the face/eye and seemed more interested in each other than in us. If you picked them up, they stayed limp and relaxed in your arms and even put their head on your shoulder but no licks or inquisitive looks (except for ONE instance where the sliver girl's front legs were placed on my mom's lap and my mom looked her in the face with a big smile and pet her and the pup looked her in the eye like she understood. I have a pic of that that I will put on the next post as I can only put four on here). Both the mom and dad of the pups were very happy to greet my mom, sister and I, the dad a bit over exuberant..lol.

Also, the pups have not been started on house breaking, they are still in a large penned off area with papers.

The silver female pup is gorgeous and, other than interaction with people, is very alert and outgoing. They were very content to all lay at our feet when they were done playing around and were alert to our movements around the room, well, except for the blue female that was so laid back all she wanted to do is sleep..lol. The white was the most interactive with even her breeder.

Now that I gave you this info... and I am very sorry about the so long story... but my question is, taken out of the environment she is in, away from her siblings, taken into my home with just my husband, me, my 8 yr. old Dobe and toy poodle, Jester, will she come around to being more people oriented or is she getting a bit beyond in age for this?? I really like her but I don't want to find I am sorry that she won't bond with us because she hadn't had enough socialization. She is not leash broken yet and has absolutely no idea of how to lead and since she doesn't come when called at this point, I couldn't get her to even follow me on the leash, she just hung her head and put on the breaks. If she is still young enough to teach her to want to be near me (bond with me) and come when called and walk on a leash, then that is ok.

If it is a chancy thing, then I may have to rethink this. I have raised and shown dogs over the last 30 years (Doberman's in obedience & Britt's in breed-finished three champions, one in bred-by) you'd think I wouldn't have to ask this question..lol.. but I am not familiar with the poodle breed and would like the opinion of poodle owner/breeders. I want this to be a wonderful, life time (dog's lifetime) commitment. I plan on using the girl to go to the nursing homes with me, to show her in obedience and possibly agility and for future breeding.

Thank you for taking the time to read and for any replies I get.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Here are some pics of the pups. All females. A white, blue & silver. They have not been worked being stacked but I asked to see them stacked so I could see how they looked. The white one did the best for being set and staying, the silver didn't care to keep her hind feet back where they needed to be and wasn't sure about this odd thing she was asked to do and the blue was about the same as the silver.
Here is the white and silver
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This is the pic that caught the moment when the silver pup and my mom had a "moment" together. This is the one thing that makes me think that she MAY be able to work out if she is gotten into my home and away from her siblings so she can learn to bond. The look she is giving my mother breaks my heart, it is like she knows my mom has something wrong.
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And a pic of all three... that is my mom's legs/feet in the pic.
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Hmmm, they look a little tired don't they lol I would make an appointment to go see them again at a different time of day then you went before and see how they act.

They are adorable, the little silver especially :love:

I don't think there is anything wrong with them but most puppies are bouncy and should be excited to see new people. But like I said they could have just been tired.

Does the breeder breed often?
 

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I agree, it sounds like they may have been tired.

Personaly though, I wouldn't not pick one based on their behavior around their litter mates like that, so long as the entire litter is healthy that is. I think that given the chance a puppy will learn and grow into that happy, bouncy, outgoing puppy that you want. How many strangers have they met? If it isn't many that too could account for why they weren't as interested in you.

All that said, I personaly would be cautious taking a happy, bouncy, outgoing standard puppy into the nursing home to visit residents other than your mother just based on the standard puppies I've been around. The adults are a different story of course.
 

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I also agree that you should go see the pups again and see if they act any different.

You mentioned that the breeder shows UKC and I like breeders that breed for the show ring, that way you know they breed to a standard. Did the breeder mention if she does the health testing recommended by the Poodle Club?
 

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Why not make another appt. and take the puppy you are thinking of getting away from its littermates for some one on one time? I can understand that you want to feel a connection with your new puppy, I would be the same way. They are beautiful!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
First, let me say thank you for all the replies. I appreciate your thoughts!

Hmmm, they look a little tired don't they lol I would make an appointment to go see them again at a different time of day then you went before and see how they act.

I don't think there is anything wrong with them but most puppies are bouncy and should be excited to see new people. But like I said they could have just been tired.

Does the breeder breed often?
Yes, they had been bathed and groomed before we came so I am sure they were tired out a bit. But they were up and trotting around and bouncing around with each other but not really interactive with people.

Yes, the breeder had 4 or 5 pups left from a couple other litters too.



I also agree that you should go see the pups again and see if they act any different.

You mentioned that the breeder shows UKC and I like breeders that breed for the show ring, that way you know they breed to a standard. Did the breeder mention if she does the health testing recommended by the Poodle Club?
My sister and I did go down again last week (a week later than the first time) and only had the silver girl brought in. She was alert to all but did not come to greet us. Even when the breeder called her to her she didn't respond, just trotted around the room checking things out, but she did come sit/lay near us. I sat on the floor for a while and she did come by me and sat next to me once. I pulled her to me and she laid down and I rubbed her belly, but she never looked up into my face.

She, herself didn't show the father UKC, she bought him already finished. She does have a beautiful silver almost 6 month old boy from 100% CH. lineage, couldn't tell you the pedigree because I am not, at this time, familiar with the lines, that she is going to have shown.

That was the other thing, she does not have either parents tested for anything. She said that all parents behind them and the lines behind them were tested and good (which is true) and she guarantees the puppy. I, myself, even though I am not planning on being no "big" breeder, plan on having my dog done before I breed her. I really do love the looks of this girl and think she would make a wonderful future breeder with her pedigree and if she gets into my place where she is taken everywhere with me and really socialized, I have a feeling she will turn out just fine personality wise. But I don't know if I am just deluding myself thinking that she will turn around and be a great companion, that is why I want opinions. I have a feeling about her but maybe I am just not looking at it right and I should just walk away from this purchase????

I agree, it sounds like they may have been tired.

Personaly though, I wouldn't not pick one based on their behavior around their litter mates like that, so long as the entire litter is healthy that is. I think that given the chance a puppy will learn and grow into that happy, bouncy, outgoing puppy that you want. How many strangers have they met? If it isn't many that too could account for why they weren't as interested in you.

All that said, I personaly would be cautious taking a happy, bouncy, outgoing standard puppy into the nursing home to visit residents other than your mother just based on the standard puppies I've been around. The adults are a different story of course.
Well, that is good to hear that given the change of home and taken out that the puppy should become the outgoing pup I would like. No, I don't believe they have met many strangers. Thanks for the thoughts/info on the nursing home. We are extremely careful and the pups are made to sit and be calm before they are allowed to be pet, Jester and my sister's pup learned this real fast (and Jester is your typical toy poodle wiggle butt and bouncy fellow), but they have learned, and are still learning, that when greeted by people they must sit quietly if they want to be pet. But I will be very careful when I bring the standard puppy I finally get with me to the nursing home...thanks. :)

Personally the silver is my favorite and looks like the best dog to me, but that is just my opinion.

It could be too that she has worked with them so as not to be roudy.

I think once you get the puppy in his new enviroment he will come out of this and be just fine. Puppies generally interact with other puppies if given the chance rather then people.
Well, I don't think that she "trained" them so much to be not rowdy, as the adults she brought in for us to see where a bit on the "jump up on you" side and we had to sorta fend them off. The pups were just more aloof with people then with other dogs. As I said, they did sit/lay by us but no looking at you or coming to you to get any petting. As I said, I do have a feeling that she may turn around fine with one on one working but I just want to be sure I am not deluding myself with this thought, and, of course, I was not thrilled to find out that the parents themselves were not tested for OFA and eyes at least.

Thanks you ALL for being helpful. I much appreciate it!!
 

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You know you might not want to hear this, but I have always found that a gut instinct is always right. You sound like you are doubting this puppy alot maybe you should listen to yourself and keep looking for your perfect match.
 

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Jester's mom,

For some reason I get the feeling that you are not 100% sure if this is the right puppy for you and I say if you are having to second guess yourself, you might want to look for another puppy.

I would be uncomfortable buying a dog that I consider for breeding from untested parents. Having grand parents tested is good, but it doesn't guarantee anything if the parents weren't tested (jmo). Having health tested parents is no guarantee that your pup will be healthy, but it does stack the odds in her favor.

I am also thinking that if the girl is being aloof and doesn't come to you or doesn't look you in the eyes, might mean that she has been brought up in the kennel and had very limited socializating with people. This may also be the reason she is still not potty trained. I can't imagine anyone having an untrained 3.5 months old standard in their house!!!

Good luck to you with whatever you decide.
 

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Your right about the pedigree....they come from some good lines. I don't know all the lines but the Pinafore and Graphic lines are pretty dogs.

I don't blame you for being concerned but they just don't sound very socialized with people yet. If you met the parents and they seem interactive and social with you then I believe the pup's will come around once away from the littermates. If or when you decide to pick one up maybe bring some treats (bait) and see how they respond. I bet they will be all over you. Once you get that puppy away from her surrounding I think she will come along well.

Both the white and silver female's are beautiful. Im a sucker for a pretty white or silver Poodle though. lol Good luck either way!
 

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I know people think dogs show be all over you or puppies need to be jumping and licking you in the face … IMO that is rude behavior…. IMO the pups seem well mannered. When we got enzo he looked at us like who are you …. He did not jump or play with us he investigated his environment and just looked at us for a few hrs lol. Then he started to follow us and was trying to jump around and play. IMO the pups sound like they need to get out of their natural environment for you to make a real assessment this means no breeder in the room. If you watch the dog whisper Caesar says "no touch, no talk, no eye contact". If the puppy comes up to you and smell you that they are showing interest …. Do not see puppies after being groomed all dogs get tired after that.

I know people want dogs from health tested parents but if this bloodlines seem good ( pinafore are good dogs) and she guarantees on the health then you should not worry. Make sure you get a contract stating the guarantee etc… If something should happened then the breeder should refund you’re your $$ or replace the dog. Most replace the dog or puppy.

they puppies look cute I like the silver one also but the white puppy looks great. Do you plan to show them ? if so I would pic puppy based on the standard see which one looks like what the standard describes ask the breeder her opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You know you might not want to hear this, but I have always found that a gut instinct is always right. You sound like you are doubting this puppy alot maybe you should listen to yourself and keep looking for your perfect match.
Yes, I am questioning myself on this, not because I don't like the girl, because I really do, and that is the dilemma, I really like her, she is very alert and very attentive of her surroundings, I love her looks and her color (well color-to-be), her pedigree is great, but it I just want to be sure that I am not making a mistake in thinking she will turn around as far as her bonding to me. That is the thing that I am 'doubting", if you want to call it that, about her. Am I thinking that she will be fine once I start working with her just because I love her looks and her alert attitude???? Am I deceiving myself. I couldn't think of a better place to ask all this than a place where all poodle people hang out.

Jester's mom,

For some reason I get the feeling that you are not 100% sure if this is the right puppy for you and I say if you are having to second guess yourself, you might want to look for another puppy.

I would be uncomfortable buying a dog that I consider for breeding from untested parents. Having grand parents tested is good, but it doesn't guarantee anything if the parents weren't tested (jmo). Having health tested parents is no guarantee that your pup will be healthy, but it does stack the odds in her favor.

I am also thinking that if the girl is being aloof and doesn't come to you or doesn't look you in the eyes, might mean that she has been brought up in the kennel and had very limited socializating with people. This may also be the reason she is still not potty trained. I can't imagine anyone having an untrained 3.5 months old standard in their house!!!

Good luck to you with whatever you decide.
Yes, I believe she was brought up basically in the penning area in their cellar. She has obviously been handled and played with by the children, they really perked up when the kids got home from school and the young daughter picked her up like a teddy bear and walked around with her and the pup never fussed and put her legs over the girls shoulders and got carried all around the room. This is why I keep "second guessing" myself about her. She wasn't attentive to me or my sister, didn't go out of her way to come up to us or look us in the eyes when we pet her, but she did have that moment where she staid with my mom and kept looking into her eyes and she loved the kids and had no problem about being carted around by her.

If anyone has ever gotten or worked with a puppy around this age that was not well socialized yet, I would love to know how it worked out. IF she will learn with me taking her out and around to socialization and bond with me, I know I would be very happy with her, for sure. I already have an inside feeling when I look at her and pet her that I am attached to, but then I wonder if I am letting my feelings get in the way when I see how she is about interaction at this point and about not being house broken. I am just unsure if it may be too late for her to bond and that is what makes me hesitate. I, of course, am not thrilled with the parents not being OFA'd but if she gives me a good guarantee on her hips/eyes passing, I would be ok with that. I do know that even if both parents have good results it never 100% guarantees that the pup may not have problems.

Your right about the pedigree....they come from some good lines. I don't know all the lines but the Pinafore and Graphic lines are pretty dogs.

I don't blame you for being concerned but they just don't sound very socialized with people yet. If you met the parents and they seem interactive and social with you then I believe the pup's will come around once away from the littermates. If or when you decide to pick one up maybe bring some treats (bait) and see how they respond. I bet they will be all over you. Once you get that puppy away from her surrounding I think she will come along well.

Both the white and silver female's are beautiful. Im a sucker for a pretty white or silver Poodle though. lol Good luck either way!
Ummm, tried the treats thing. Pups have no interest in treats, at least not in what we had. I get the little bags of soft treats and the ones I had with me the second time we went was called "carry outs" but she sniffed it and walked away. Also tried cheese, no go. They are not accustomed to being given treats at all. Now, maybe you guys can answer this question for me.... the owner said that standard poodles are not very food motivated and are best trained though praise as they don't much care for treats????? I know my toy poodle (and, yes, I know he is a toy and thus different), LOVES to do anything for a treat. And my Dobe also will do anything for a treat.

IF I could feel comfortable that when taken away from her "home" and brought to mine and given attention and being taken out to a lot of places that she will bond with me well, then I would love to have her. But, if she is too old for it to work out or it is only a 50/50 chance she will, then I am concerned about it. I don't mind putting in "love" time and training if the end results will be a poodle that loves to be with me. Since she is not extremely people oriented at this time, will she want to bond with my Dobe & toy poodle instead of me????? I have worked with Dobe's in the past that had not been well socialized at 4 months old and worked with them and they turned out to be wonderful, socialized pets. But, I know nothing about poodle temperaments in this situation.

Again, I can't tell you all thank you enough for giving your info and asking questions that I may not have thought of.
Thanks!!
 

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IF I could feel comfortable that when taken away from her "home" and brought to mine and given attention and being taken out to a lot of places that she will bond with me well, then I would love to have her. But, if she is too old for it to work out or it is only a 50/50 chance she will, then I am concerned about it. I don't mind putting in "love" time and training if the end results will be a poodle that loves to be with me. Since she is not extremely people oriented at this time, will she want to bond with my Dobe & toy poodle instead of me????? I have worked with Dobe's in the past that had not been well socialized at 4 months old and worked with them and they turned out to be wonderful, socialized pets. But, I know nothing about poodle temperaments in this situation.

Again, I can't tell you all thank you enough for giving your info and asking questions that I may not have thought of.
Thanks!!
It should not matter how old the dog is you can socialize any dog if you know how to do it properly.

Enzo is food motivated but he is just as happy to get a "good boy" and pet

I beleive if the breeder lets you spend a day with pup she will respond to you....
 

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I got my Standard girl at 11 months old and she is my shadow. She was not well socialized and has a few issues but nothing that's not correctable.

Puppies should be excited to see people and Poodles are people dogs they should WANT to be with people and excited to see whats going on. I agree that it might be something to worry about.

You said she keeps them in her cellar? :sarcastic: Where do the adults stay?

But if you feel strongly about this dog then I say go for it, once you get it home and start working with it, she should come out of her shell and come into her personality.

As for not being food motivated, that depends on the dog. Tuesday LOVES treats and is a quick study. We can;t even say that word in my house or all hell breaks loose :lol:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I know people think dogs show be all over you or puppies need to be jumping and licking you in the face … IMO that is rude behavior…. IMO the pups seem well mannered. When we got enzo he looked at us like who are you …. He did not jump or play with us he investigated his environment and just looked at us for a few hrs lol. Then he started to follow us and was trying to jump around and play. IMO the pups sound like they need to get out of their natural environment for you to make a real assessment this means no breeder in the room. If you watch the dog whisper Caesar says "no touch, no talk, no eye contact". If the puppy comes up to you and smell you that they are showing interest …. Do not see puppies after being groomed all dogs get tired after that.

I know people want dogs from health tested parents but if this bloodlines seem good ( pinafore are good dogs) and she guarantees on the health then you should not worry. Make sure you get a contract stating the guarantee etc… If something should happened then the breeder should refund you’re your $$ or replace the dog. Most replace the dog or puppy.

they puppies look cute I like the silver one also but the white puppy looks great. Do you plan to show them ? if so I would pic puppy based on the standard see which one looks like what the standard describes ask the breeder her opinion.
No, I would not want a puppy to be jumping all over me and licking me all over and such. I find that obnoxious. I would not buy a puppy of that temperament as they are too bold and, to me, require a lot more work as they want to be boss and take a long time to learn to respect people and keep their feet on the floor. I would not mind if any puppy came up and put its paws in my lap and gave me a kiss or rolled over in my lap to have a tummy rub. But to have the pups not even react, not even look at you when you call it or tap the floor with your hand and call it, that is what I am referring to.

I want to show in obedience for sure. I may even try her out at agility. I would love to show in breed and may do so in puppy class since they have only the puppy cut to deal with, but my poodle will be going horse back riding with me, going to the nursing homes and hospitals, being outside living the country life on hikes and camp outs, so I don't want to have to worry about growing a "show coat". I want my dog to have a happy full family life. I don't want to have to leave her behind on an overnight horse back ride because she may damage her coat.

I have to say, both the white and the silver are beautiful to look at and beautiful movers. The silver even more so on the movement than the white. The silver has the most gorgeous springy effortless trot that looks so elegant and graceful. The silver has a deeper chest but her tail set is a little curled over the back... not bad at all... but is, where the white has a better tail set. I think both of their faces are beautiful. The white has a more refined face but then she has a more refined body. The silver is a little heavier boned, more substance without being bulky looking, and has a heavier face. Their eye expressions on all of them are really great. They all have straight front legs and nice setting rear legs. The blue, as far as I was concerned, was more bulky and way, way too laid back and just didn't move with the "look at me" attitude like the white and silver did. She was the tallest and the least caring about being handled. In my judgement, I would not pick the blue to show and I think either the white or silver could be shown equally, maybe some would feel the white was better, maybe some the silver, I think it would depend on what type they like better.

Here are some more pics of them:
The silver was starting to turn to her right so I didn't get a nice straight on shot.
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Well from all the pics of the silver she is looking at you guys ( especially your mom) she is looking up in the new picture posted also. IMO she is showing more interest. It looks like she is trying to figure out who are you kind of deal. I would only be concerned if the puppies shy away or ran from you. I just think the breeder has not taken out to see more people.
 

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Gosh they are hard to resist even in photos. I think I would have taken the silver girl home right away just cause I am soft and would have thought about all your thinking about later! I don't want to be the doom sayer BUT as you have asked I have some major reservations about this pup.

You have missed the first major socialisation window between 8 and 12/14 weeks, while this is not the end of the world especially if the breeder has done alot with the pup but it sounds like she hasn't. This is a very important time for the pup to understand that the world is a ownderful place, you are a wonderful person and generally what is acceptable behaviour. Personally I wouldn't get a pup unless I could have him at 8 weeks specifically because I want this period to happen in my home and with my rules being intrenched.

The parents are not health tested. Some one said in an earlier thread that at least the grand parents were tested and you can always get your money back or swap for another poodle. I know if it was me there is no way I would be able to give my pup back to a breeder and do a swap for another healthy pup, once you have the pup your going to bond with it and I personally couldn't just give it back so your stuck with an unhealthy poo. The vet bills for some of the poo diseases can be horrendous. Why reduce your odds of having a healthy pup by buying from non tested parents. Plus if people stoppped buying from so called breeders who don't health test then this practice would stop and our breed would be all the better for it.

One of the most endearing traits of a poo is that he/she will look you in the eye. I know T has always done this, even the first minute I look at him through the crate after he got off the plane he stared into my eyes and you could see his thought processes working out who I was and if I was OK. I love this and let him put his paws on my chest to do so, he does get down as soon as I ask and he is not allowed to do this to others. I am very sceptical about a pup who does not want to immediately interact and only on occassion acklowedges you by looking into your eyes.

The pups are not toilet trained at this age and while poos are very clever and she will pick this up, why make more hassles for yourself than necessary. It doesn't sound like she is crate trained either at this age - more impending issues to have to deal with.

There are plenty of good breeders out there, put your name down with one you trust and can talk openly with and wait for your perfect pup. JMO but I would undertsand if you went straight back and picked her up :biggrin:
 

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Well I think you are making a good decision. Alot of that contract throws up red flags, but to me, once I found out the pups were being raised in a cellar that would be the end of it. Socialization is so important and there is no way to do that correctly without the pups being underfoot in the family's main living space. Not only for human contact but for desensitization(sp?) to normal household items and noises, etc.
 

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It should not matter how old the dog is you can socialize any dog if you know how to do it properly.
That is actualy not entirely true, there is a pretty narrow window for building social skills. 16 weeks is widely accepted to be the end of that period. Dogs that don't at least get a start on socialization before 16 weeks can be a little socialy retarded. Some will come around and some will not ever be 100%
Not to say that you cannot make a fantastic dog who is well mannered and reliable in most situations from a poorly socialized puppy. It's just harder and the work you do will be less effective all around than if the puppy had started out younger.

A friend of mine breeds chessies and doesn't do any socialization training until they are 5 or 6 months old. Then she takes them to walmart and to training classes, and just about anywhere else that will allow dogs and lets people feed them cookies until they are comfortable enough with strangers to be shown and sometimes do obedience. They turn out ok I guess, but their personalities around people isn't anything like what it could be. She doesn't care, she uses them for field trials mostly so as long as they aren't gun shy and they can work around other people and dogs in the field she is happy with them.
She trains dogs for other people though and ironicly her process is different when it's somebody elses dog. She starts them out as young as possible, right after the people get the puppy, with the same general idea that she uses with her own dogs. The results are amazingly different. Age does play a role.
 

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Am I the only one that cannot see the pictures?
My spoo Gaby came to me back in 1996 at the age of 3.5 month.
She came from Florence Graham of Graphic poodles.
She was unsocialized and very timid.
She was the last puppy left and I knew she was meant to be mine.
Well,she grew into an absolute joy and was the best dog I ever had...always remained a bit aloof,but I find that a common trait among the spoos.
Gunther I got when he was 8 month old and clearly not socialized enough.
But he is coming along quite nicely and we are bonding well.
IMO,the relationship with a dog takes time to develop and with love and patience it will happen in time,if not instantly.
Either way...go with your gut feelings.
 
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