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Discussion Starter #1
I got a call (I'm suppose to be retired) lol. from someone who found me on that website, Nextdoor. She just got a puppy from https://www.nc-ranch.com/

I see no titles but do see a few genetic health tests performed. What do you think of their structure? I see some that look longer than they are tall unless it's an optical illusion.

They were born in the house but spent most of their puppy hood in an outdoor kennel. She was told there were lots of kids, activity etc a lot but she didn't see any at that time. This puppy, at 9 weeks is shy and acting aggressive...growling seriously and barking at people. She had one trainer look at the pup on a vet's recommendation and the trainer says she's aggressive and won't work with her, told her she should send the pup back. (this is in eastern Wa where the breeder is) Anyhow, she's very upset and asked me to come take a look and see what I think so I'm going on Thursday. I won't charge her anything but a little for gas maybe.

Anyhow, as far as conformation and anything else, wondered what your impression is. Of course, you can't see the temperament. But otherwise....any impressions you get. I'm really not an expert on conformation even though I showed Matisse in conformation.

Thanks!
 

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I looked at their website. Some of the dogs have their OFA results listed as pending, one has just fair hips, that one female is CKC registered, not AKC. I think it is difficult to judge conformation/body length by looking at the pictures, due to the angle of photos.

I did read through the contract. Pretty sure your friend will be forfeiting the price of the pup by returning it. At the very least, if the vet discovers something physically wrong with the pup, according to the contract, the breeder will have a vet of their choice examine the pup at PURCHASER's expense. If there is something physically wrong and the breeder agrees to take it back because of a physical problem then your friend might get her money back. I am not sure where a behavioral issue fits into the contract cancellation and refund policy.

I would ask how the pup is reacting to your friend.....barking, aggressive and fearful with her also? All of that type of behavior would suggest to me lack of socialization and/or rough handing and overstimulation by children in the household. There were a bunch of various aged children in photos on their website.

It is very telling that the vet so readily suggested having a trainer look at the pup right away for an evaluation and even more telling that a very experienced trainer said she would not work with that pup.

What a difficult and sad situation. I wish your friend well with this situation. You are a good friend to travel and take a look at the pup! Let us know how this works out.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yes, I told her that the dog sounded like she had an unstable temperament. But that I'd still pop over and see what I can discern. Yes, it's a little troubling that the vet and the trainer saw red flags and by her more detailed description, it is sounding disappointing. The breeder asked for the pup back and would give her the sister who seems more normal by the way it was described. But she's thinking of taking a break, going without a pup for a while before deciding. I gave her a couple good breeder leads not too far from here...a ferry ride away. This pup spooked at some people walking along side the parked car. Okay...but then had no bounce-back...stayed upset for a long time after. So, the poor gal is quite sad needless to say.

If it were me, I'd return the pup whether or not I got my money back and chalk it up to a learning experience or something and just move forward, trying not to lament too much. Difficult.

Thanks for your input VQ.
 
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To me it looks like a very average breeder, doing a little conformation here and there with ordinary dogs. And probably not doing much testing either. I never trust those «*pending*» labels, they seem to remain for years and never become «*final*».

Not much to show for. I don’t like her dogs, and it doesn’t look like the puppies are raised in the home with the family.

I’ll be curious to find out what your assessment is !
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I am seeing the front ends not very good...legs not under the body enough. (if I'm seeing things right) And the curve in the hind legs? And I'm seeing that the heads/muzzles aren't very refined. Longer than tall in some of them. Now that's my un-expert observations which may be off. But yep, I wouldn't breed a dog without having had it be judged my multiple judges from a major breed club and have those judges deem the dog excellent for breeding and there's nothing to show for that. A little bit of marginal health testing. So, yeah...back yard breeder. But anyhow, yep, I'll see what my impression is when I go in. Poor lady. How disappointing. I said to her that she ought to sign up here and see what others think and get some support.


Thanks poodle forum peeps!:angel:
 

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A conformational flaw sounds like the only way the pup's new owner will get any money back and that sounds like a challenge from what others who looked more closely than I did are saying.


As to temperament this pup sounds like a hot mess and I wouldn't want to have to deal with it. If someone else who does in home training has already refused to work with the pup I probably would also do so. It is quite a huge red flag that the vet and a trainer have already said they see problems. My only thought is a behaviorist evaluation if there is a good one nearby.


Be careful while you are there not to get bitten, those needle teeth can inflict bad damage.
 

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Well I can't say much as I really haven't the knowledge. I'm not impressed by the website but.. what do I know. Has she spoken to the breeder? That would be my first step. Perhaps the breeder would swap the puppy for a more suitable pup. I personally don't like to deem a pup aggressive at 9 weeks old especially since it spent the majority of its life in an outdoor kennel so it couldn't possibly have had the individual social skills it would have had it it were raised in the home. If she has no choice but to keep the pup I would 1. find a different trainer, I've never heard of a good trainer turning away from such a young puppy. Socialize socialize 10x over.
 

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First of all, I hate their website because it gives me vertigo. They call their poodles chocolate, tails are docked too short, just ugh. If you post individual pics here, I'd be very happy to criticize, I mean critique them.
 

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My impression is not great, but I have also seen significantly worse. Looks like all puppies are only CKC registered, so maybe they only have limited registration on the parent dogs. I agree they dock tails too short. And way too many pending OFA tests.

I would not want to deal with a puppy that is that much of a mess at only 9 weeks. I do wonder if maybe it's just incredibly overwhelmed and in shock, and might do better with a much slower approach. Sounds like a dog with a weak temperament.
 

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I wish I could help PB, but I’m far from an expert here. I think, though, if the puppy is aggressive at 9 wks and the vet and a trainer had huge concerns would tempt me quickly to give the puppy back. While the puppy could bond with 1 person, it would still be a danger to everyone else.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Doesn't sound like this puppy should be in a home with kids for one thing. I would think it would be best to give the dog back and not a accept the sister. I am guessing the family, rather than the breeder, chose this dog for them. Hopefully they take whatever advice you give them PB.
 

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I saw some similar websites when on my search in 2017, folks who farm or ranch and also breed one or two specialty animals.

I've no experience judging conformation, and we can't see the temperament of the dogs in photos, although no dog looked scared or shy to me. Maybe it was just for the photos, but the featured dogs look clean and decently groomed. Also the backgrounds in the photos look like well kept areas. Again could just be for the photos. As Raindrops said, I've seen worse.

I used the AKC look up and found no additional health info on the three standards with kennel names.
 

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After viewing further and seeing that she has spoken to the breeder I would return the dog, tell the breeder i was to upset and did not want another and hopefully get my money returned. Otherwise I'd chalk it to experience and be doglegs for awhile. It looks like the breeder wants to do right but hasn't gotten there.
 

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I’m looking forward to hearing your assessment when you meet this puppy.

I find it hard to believe that a puppy so young at 9 weeks could be so troubling, I tend to think of this age as such a malleable one where proper socialization and training can accomplish so much. However it does sound like this puppy is outside the range of normal if it couldn’t bounce back quickly from being spooked by people walking near the car. Not the kind of dog I personally could live with.

I feel so sorry for this poor person. Sad situation.
 

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Crap website - done cheaply (possibly for free) with Wix. Not very well put together also. Small scale puppy mill.
Hints: Pups are listed individually with names (and sold ones are listed as "adopted" argh! pet peeve of mine!
Parents are not listed with full names - and have no titles and are AKC "registered" which means bupkus
No health clearances - everything is "pending" which in English means was not done...
No age of the parents given
No pedigrees or history of the breeder
No mention of local breed clubs or mentors
"Info" given is useless crap - lifted from other sites that gives no specific information.

For a puppy to be that aggressive at 9 weeks there must have been serious mistakes made raising it. The dog will NEVER unlearn that. This is a puppy mill in my assessment (even if it may be small in scale..)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
She texted me a photo of the breeder's toddler or grandchild (?) dragging the pup on a leash. The pups neck was being stretched. NO FREAKIN' WONDER!

Then she texted me a picture of a Kamman puppy that's available. GORGEOUS! I encouraged her to bite the bullet, send back this puppy and get that one if she can afford it. I would in a heartbeat. I doubt she'll get her money back. She has talked to the breeder and she's willing to give her another pup that might be better. But I'd go with the Kamman puppy if it were me. She also talked with Christine Dallas of Farthing poodles...awesome lady, awesome dogs.

She'd still like me to pop over tomorrow so I will. Her hubby is getting bonded but she seems more flexible at this point. So we shall see. I feel badly for them and the puppy.
 

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Crap website - done cheaply (possibly for free) with Wix. Not very well put together also. Small scale puppy mill.
Hints: Pups are listed individually with names (and sold ones are listed as "adopted" argh! pet peeve of mine!
Parents are not listed with full names - and have no titles and are AKC "registered" which means bupkus
No health clearances - everything is "pending" which in English means was not done...
No age of the parents given
No pedigrees or history of the breeder
No mention of local breed clubs or mentors
"Info" given is useless crap - lifted from other sites that gives no specific information.

For a puppy to be that aggressive at 9 weeks there must have been serious mistakes made raising it. The dog will NEVER unlearn that. This is a puppy mill in my assessment (even if it may be small in scale..)
I noticed that too. You know first off when they just list their one word names and all the stuff you mentioned.
 

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First of all, I hate their website because it gives me vertigo. They call their poodles chocolate, tails are docked too short, just ugh. If you post individual pics here, I'd be very happy to criticize, I mean critique them.
Thanks MF. They're all in that link I posted on original post. If you know more than I do about this, do tell. :alberteinstein::act-up:

Anyhow, I'm still planning on going there tomorrow. I don't think I'll get bitten Catherine. Thank you. I've worked with more aggressive dogs than what this one sounds like. That's what constituted a part of my business. I never got bitten from a client's dog. Only a dog I was trying to save bit the livin' daylights out of me.

Anyhow, I told her not to be offended when I come in, that I won't be looking at or paying attention to her dog in any way at first until I observe out of the corner of my eye lol...other than dropping some tiny tid bits on the floor as I move around the room slowly, minding my own business. Then we'll go from there. I'll see what the pup does as a little time passes.
 
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