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I know that the whole 'doodle' issue has been discussed to death on here. Mods if you want to delete this thread to avoid issues then I won't take it personally. But there is just something that has been weighing on my mind lately and I want to express those thoughts and to be honest the people around my don't care enough about this to let me rant on this with them.

If you want to skip my long rant below you can find the abstract of my hypothesis here: The problems which have popped up in relation to these poodle mixes are indicadent of deeper issues among dog buyers and owners, which goes much deeper and is certainly much older than the doodle craze.

Here's why:

- There is more to poodles than a non-shedding coat
I hate it when people say 'labradoodle is like a lab but doesn't shed' but I also hate it when I hear 'just get a standard poodle' as both reduce the poodle to the qualities of its coat. The non-shedding coat is certainly something that has to be considered before committing to a poodle and is understandably a requirement for allergy sufferers. But there is so much more to the poodle, regardless of whether its shaved down or in a continental. Just like there is much more to owning a labrador than just constantly vaccuming and cleaning dog hair of your clothes. Beneath the curls is an intelligent and energetic dog with its own breed-specific temperament. They are not just fluffy labradors.

- There is a reason why labs, goldens and cockers are so popular
I may not have much experience with standard poodles but I do have a lot of experience with labradors and cocker spaniels, both personally and through the people around me. While popularity has done a huge disservice to both the labradors and the cocker spaniels especially (its kind of hard to talk about them as one coherent breed there is such huge variation), there is a very good reason why they retain so much popularity in both Europe and North America. For the most part they are just enough 'dog' for most families.

I think a lot of labrador and cocker spaniel owners would really struggle with a poodle. A poodle is a lot of dog, a lot of grooming, a lot of intelligence and a lot of energy. While they are not quite a 'oh my god please don't get one if you are a first time owner' kind of breed like the malinois or tibetan mastiff, they are also not as easy as the labradors, goldens or cocker spaniels. The labrador and cocker spaniel-owning families that I know would not do well with a poodle.

Furthermore, I have my doubts that a doodle owner who never brushed their doodle properly or gave it the training and exerice that the energetic dog needed would do much better in maintaining a standard poodle.

- Bad breeding is bad breeding

In the poodleforum posts on doodles that I have read I have seen a lot of comments about bad temperaments among the various doodles as well as bad health. Now lets be honest, a person who wants a cockapoo and finds a puppymill who sells various breeds and then decides to get a little poodle from them instead is not likely to get a dog with a good temperament or health. Bad breeding is bad breeding no matter what kind of dog or dogs are involved.

- People are bad at picking dogs
People don't put enough thought into what kind of dog they should get and sometimes when they do they fail to understand the complexities and nuances of dogs, the breeds and breeding. Especially the difference between the 'ideal' version of a breed vs the problems persistant in a breed that may contradict the breed standard (such as the 'rage syndrome' in cockers or hyperactivity in labradors). This is a very important distinction not only as an argument for finding a good breeder, but also to understand how different the experiences of going to a shelter or a rescue can be. Its not enough just to find a dog that looks like your chosen breed.

How many people got a cocker spaniel or a dalmatian after watching a disney movie??? Those breeds ended up experiencing the same problems as the poodle mixes are today. It doesn't matter that they were already established breeds.

The fact that so many people genuinely believed that they would magically get the temperament of the labrador with the non-shedding (but straight) hair of the poodle shows the prevalance of general ignorance of dogs. Which is a much bigger problem in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of these designer mixes but I also just think that the problem is a bit more complex than 'just get a poodle instead'.
 

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I get what you are saying. I read on here lots of horror stories about bad mixes. But in truth the doodles I have met have been lovely. And I admit that sometimes I am a little jealous when I see how eager they are to please and how food motivated.

And I do like the look of some. It isn’t just the fluffy face, the body structure of some are nice.

But I am not giving up my poodle anytime soon :)
 

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Puppy mills can easily pivot to the cross du jour, cockapoo, maltipoo, bernadoodle, labradoodle. Just add an oodle or a poo and “non-shedding”, but don’t look behind the curtain. I can’t imagine how annoyed a good breeder would be to see a cross selling for more than the real deal. The intentional breeding of crosses with poodles never even getting top billing, lol, is a sore point on PF. I’m sure every breed club that gets top billing in the ‘name the cross’ feels the same way.
 

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I agree with many of your points. There is a long tradition of dogs crossbred for specific purposes: longdogs, feists, lurchers, curs. I think doodles are a continuation of this tradition.

Crossbreeds do sometimes lead to new breeds. Jack Russell terriers came from someone wanting a better fox terrier. Dobermans came from someone wanting a better protection dog. Perhaps Cobberdogs will become a recognized breed someday too.

However, I also think there are some important differences between what's happening with the doodle scene and what goes on with other crossbreeds. One is is a certain level of revulsion directed towards the poodle side of doodle crosses. I can't imagine a lurcher breeder starting with the attitude that whippets are sissy dogs and a manly dollop of hound is exactly what's needed to turn it into a real dog. Yet, fear of prissiness, not a well considered evaluation of breed traits, seems to be the motivation behind many doodle purchases. This hostility towards one of the parent breeds is phenomenon unique to doodles.

Another is the sheer volume of doodle breeding going on right now. It's a problem from an animal welfare perspective for the dogs trapped in puppy mills. It's also, potentially, a business problem for poodle breeders. Breeds can and do go extinct when they fall out of fashion. English Water Spaniels, St John's Water Dog, Paisley Terrier...all these breeds are gone. Otterhounds are hanging on by a thread. Poodles are nowhere near that level of decline, but I think it's reasonable for breed lovers to be concerned.

As for discussing doodles here, well this is a poodle forum. Lots of us have other pets, and we certainly discuss them on occasion. However, there are forums devoted to Goldens, Boxers, German Shepherds, cats, and yes, even Labradoodles. I think it's reasonable to expect this forum to mostly stick to its core purpose, poodles.
 

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Some people really like to go on and on.
Tastes change. People assume that the same breeds will all last with the same degree of prevalence many years hence. Some won't make it. Some already have gone bye-bye (try finding a Sealyham Terrier. A breed which was wildly popular in the States in the 1920s through 1940s).

MOST people don't like Poodles. You can't ARGUE them into liking Poodles. You can't force people into being as interested in hanging out on dog discussion forums as you are....or force them to all get PHDs before getting a puppy or to force them to buy the AKC propaganda about "pure bloodedness = quality" or "heath testing = healthy dogs".

Where does that lead us? I think the Poodle breed is LUCKY its use in the breeding of mixed breeds is so wide spread. This will extend the existence of the Poodle breed for many years.
 
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