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Discussion Starter #1
Do you really believe your own post? Even the PM you sent me made it sound like A) you are in fact friends w/ Laura and B) you have a serious issue w/ Arreau. If Laura isn't your friend and you don't have a problem with Arreau then why get involved in their business? I'm not the only one that saw the mention of Dugan as a shot at Arreau and I honestly think that's how you meant it. You know he is associated w/ Arreau's program and most people here know of b/c Arreau has mentioned him. Why pick that dog if it wasn't to get Arreau's attention?
I am not friends with Laura.

Respectfully, I would hope Arreau posts her results of her testing. She knows I have requested through PMs and private emails that she share as I am interested in other testing facilities testing procedures, QA and certification. OFA and VetGen are not the only companies out there that test dogs. We share a common love of the red standard poodle breed. How are we to make the red breed better if people hide things? Every red breeder out there is of interest to me as well as BYB and doodle breeders getting reds into their programs. How can we make the red line better? Please share your opinion on that subject, I'll even start a new thread for the response. I am truly interested in people opinions be they knowledgeable or not about breeding. In the military it was called the suggestion program in others it's called grass roots efforts. Everyone's opinion is valuable as perception is important to understand.
 

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I think you have to start w/ nice dogs that fit the standard and breed for the total package. Not just color, COI, temperment, health OR conformation. There really seems to be a trend w/ red breeders who think they are special. They don't have to show or do the proper health testing. Even you (Thestars) mentioned the "gold standard for reds." There should be no "for red", they are poodles, just like any other. If they were bred to the same "gold standard" as other colors, there would be more quality reds. There might be fewer reds in general, but higher percentage would be healthy, well tempered and nice looking. You don't see silver breeders holding themselves to a separate standard. B/c of that there are more nice silvers out there and they are doing more winning in the show ring. To further Roxy's point, silver breeders are breeding out to other colors (blue, white, black).
 

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I think that the dogs that are being used should be of the highest quality available. Tested and pointed if possible. WE need to gravitate towards the darker of the reds , staying away as much as possible from teh ones that have faded,,,,, as in my opinion they Do carry the fading factor, . But I am still on the fence about bringing in a black in the mix... Time will tell.. Others have tried this and have gotten blacks and apricots.. So far I have not seen this work...I agree with cbrand that it is not like mixing paint :) Lets not forget that the reds have not been around very long..
Silver needs the white in the mix to help them fade BTW....Silver is a direct decendant of black and white.....I had a silver boy that was the product of a blue bitch and she was striking.. I love the blues.. Blue silver white black all related !
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think you have to start w/ nice dogs that fit the standard and breed for the total package. Not just color, COI, temperment, health OR conformation. There really seems to be a trend w/ red breeders who think they are special. They don't have to show or do the proper health testing. Even you (Thestars) mentioned the "gold standard for reds." There should be no "for red", they are poodles, just like any other. If they were bred to the same "gold standard" as other colors, there would be more quality reds. There might be fewer reds in general, but higher percentage would be healthy, well tempered and nice looking. You don't see silver breeders holding themselves to a separate standard. B/c of that there are more nice silvers out there and they are doing more winning in the show ring. To further Roxy's point, silver breeders are breeding out to other colors (blue, white, black).
The "gold standard" was meant for OFA and Vetgen. That's the "gold standard" that I was referring to for puppy buyers as well as breeder referrals that we point out to potential puppy buyers. I too believe it should be based on the defined standard for the poodle. I know all about color breeding and what can and should not be used for the reds. I also know about what I'm currently seeing in the AKC ring. poor front carriages, ewe necks, no chins and over angulation in the rear. It actually hurts to see this happening in the poodle. I had attended a Pat Hastings seminar called the Puppy Puzzle, mostly on structure of the dog. I so want to hire her to evaluate Bindi's first litter, way down the road of course. As a respected AKC judge and knowledgeable breeder her evaluations of puppies is spot on.
 

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I know you were talking about health testing but you implied that there was a different standard for health testing, when it comes to red, than there are for Poodles in general. My point was that is the problem, red breeders seem to think there is a different set of "rules" for them b/c their color is new.
 

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This is the poodle in general Not just the reds correct? I have seen HUGE black in the ring and eeeney weenie litle whites as well. So it is not just reds that have a problem..
My male is putting fronts on his puppies I am VERY proud of that ....
 

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I think that the dogs that are being used should be of the highest quality available. Tested and pointed if possible. WE need to gravitate towards the darker of the reds , staying away as much as possible from teh ones that have faded,,,,, as in my opinion they Do carry the fading factor, . But I am still on the fence about bringing in a black in the mix... Time will tell.. Others have tried this and have gotten blacks and apricots.. So far I have not seen this work...I agree with cbrand that it is not like mixing paint :) Lets not forget that the reds have not been around very long..
Silver needs the white in the mix to help them fade BTW....Silver is a direct decendant of black and white.....I had a silver boy that was the product of a blue bitch and she was striking.. I love the blues.. Blue silver white black all related !
Wouldn't breeding to a black dominant fix that?
So then it wouldn't carry the gene with all of those light colours, and then with the offspring, they would all be black, but then they would carry the gene for reds, and you would know that it was red, as the mother would be red, or vice versa.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
What I am really wanting to find out more from an outsiders perspective is the perception issue of the Red standard and the Breeders that have been and that are currently involved with the line. And why do so many people ask for a DARK Red poodle. Can they not be happy with any red poodle? I do not want to have the same perception reflected on my future breeding program just because I choose the hardest color out there. My personal goal is to make the red as viable in the ring as any color, albeit on a small breeding scale as these kids are my pets as well. Heck I am am even willing to accept defeat if the program is not up to the highest standards. I even believe that as a Red Breeder I will have to go beyond the currently established standards to ensure that the perception does not go back to what it is currently now being seeing in red breeding programs.
 

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I think that the dogs that are being used should be of the highest quality available. Tested and pointed if possible. WE need to gravitate towards the darker of the reds , staying away as much as possible from teh ones that have faded,,,,, as in my opinion they Do carry the fading factor, . But I am still on the fence about bringing in a black in the mix... Time will tell.. Others have tried this and have gotten blacks and apricots.. So far I have not seen this work...I agree with cbrand that it is not like mixing paint :) Lets not forget that the reds have not been around very long..
Silver needs the white in the mix to help them fade BTW....Silver is a direct decendant of black and white.....I had a silver boy that was the product of a blue bitch and she was striking.. I love the blues.. Blue silver white black all related !
I think using blacks should not be ruled out completely, the thing is you need to look at their pedigree. If you have a black that has whites in their pedigree you obviously do not want to breed to them to your red... you probably also want to stay away from blacks that is dominant black, as all puppies would then be black. Unless, your goal is to breed those black puppies back to reds. So, basically you could breed to black if they had red/apricot only in their pedigree?!?!?!?!
It's true, it's not like mixing paint... unfortunately a lot of breeders think it's just that easy.
I don't know if one is breeding for color how much of the desired traits (other than color) do you end up with?
 

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Maybe,,,,, but so far that is not what is happening ..It really does depend on the other colors that the balck dog carries, and because black is dominate and carries for many other colors you would get black , cream or apricot or brown .. Very few black carry the red gene... The fading as far as looking at a pedigree is concerned is showing these particular (fading reds) dogs have silver white and cream in the pedigree...This seems to be the issue.. But this is still unknown as well . I have dark reds and am breeding dark red to dark red . Getting dark...So we will see. As I said time will tell...
Because red is not dominate yet..
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Wouldn't breeding to a black dominant fix that?
So then it wouldn't carry the gene with all of those light colours, and then with the offspring, they would all be black, but then they would carry the gene for reds, and you would know that it was red, as the mother would be red, or vice versa.
You would need a clean 4 to 5 generation of just blacks in the line to fix type. (If you know one let me know because I am on the look out, I know of only two kennels that do straight black only breeding) You do not want to introduce white or cream and especially not brown silver or blue into the red line.
 

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I think using blacks should not be ruled out completely, the thing is you need to look at their pedigree. If you have a black that has whites in their pedigree you obviously do not want to breed to them to your red... you probably also want to stay away from blacks that is dominant black, as all puppies would then be black. Unless, your goal is to breed those black puppies back to reds. So, basically you could breed to black if they had red/apricot only in their pedigree?!?!?!?!
It's true, it's not like mixing paint... unfortunately a lot of breeders think it's just that easy.
I don't know if one is breeding for color how much of the desired traits (other than color) do you end up with?
But if you bred to a dominant black, with all the right colour in the pedigree, sure you would get black puppies, but then your puppies would carry the gene for your desired red colour, and not white or apricot. And then you can breed your puppies to another dominant black, same type of breeding as your puppies (not inbreeding), or a red.

With a dominant black, some of the puppies would carry the red, some wouldn't, an easy genetic test would soon tell.

If you bred to the same type of breeding, then you would get blacks and reds in the litter, some blacks would carry the red, some wouldn't

If you bred to a red, you would get reds, and blacks that carried red.

Am I wrong here?
 

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So far that is not what is happening :) Some have tried,,,, Joan of majestic told me that the only time she bred to black she got epilepsy.. She bred nothing but apricots and reds .. That is a proven fact that she got reds time after time..
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Nope you are not wrong. We just got to get some nice All Black poodle breeders to help us Red Poodle Breeder out in making better type. But of course not to bring in all the diseases.
 

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You would need a clean 4 to 5 generation of just blacks in the line to fix type. (If you know one let me know because I am on the look out, I know of only two kennels that do straight black only breeding) You do not want to introduce white or cream and especially not brown silver or blue into the red line.
So you would be doing this to improve overal structure balance and fronts correct?
 

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So far that is not what is happening :) Some have tried,,,, Joan of majestic told me that the only time she bred to black she got epilepsy.. She bred nothing but apricots and reds .. That is a proven fact that she got reds time after time..
That does not necessarily mean that epilepsy happens in that type of breeding.
I know that dark reds bred to dark reds will produce dark reds, but I thought this was about bringing the overall quality of reds up, and I thought that by using high quality dominant blacks, that this might work?
 

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I don't think the black dog has to have only blacks. If the black dog is carrying the E allele and has no browns then you can work you way up from there. Only use INKY BLACK DOGS that don't fade.

The first litter might have cremes and apricots if you breed a red to a black with white and creme in the back ground.

All you do is take that puppy and breed it back to a deep red and the pups should be red or deep apricot. It will take time to get the color back! Imo its worth it if you want some AKC quality dogs. it just seems like most red breeders are only willing to do red to reds because of the $$$ involved.
 

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So far that is not what is happening :) Some have tried,,,, Joan of majestic told me that the only time she bred to black she got epilepsy.. She bred nothing but apricots and reds .. That is a proven fact that she got reds time after time..
If that's the case the black dog's line was probably carrying epilepsy. I don't think it was because she bred to a black.
 
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