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Discussion Starter #1
There is so much out there about not spaying too young and spaying before first heat - letting a dog have one litter etc. At what age do you all think a spoo should be spayed. Ginger was done too early and had urinary incontinence from it and had to take hormones.

Also the breeder I got NJ from said that I should wait until one year so all her bones develop before spaying.

Ok guys - give with the advice that I can always depend on! and thanks!
 

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Best to wait until after the first heat. But you should be aware that NJ will be bleeding for 3-4 weeks. So you need to either confine her to parts of your house that can be easily cleaned up, or get panties for her, or cover everything in your house with sheets. Some people just don't want to deal with that. But if you don't mind living through a heat, it is much better for your girl to wait.

Here's some info from the internet:

Spaying and neutering Dr. Karen Becker

Summary of pros and cons of spay/neuter
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs

Benefits and Risks of Neutering–An Evidence-Based Approach
Benefits and Risks of Neutering–An Evidence-Based Approach | The SkeptVet
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Best to wait until after the first heat. But you should be aware that NJ will be bleeding for 3-4 weeks. So you need to either confine her to parts of your house that can be easily cleaned up, or get panties for her, or cover everything in your house with sheets. Some people just don't want to deal with that. But if you don't mind living through a heat, it is much better for your girl to wait.

Here's some info from the internet:

Spaying and neutering Dr. Karen Becker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enPCZA1WFKY

Summary of pros and cons of spay/neuter
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs

Benefits and Risks of Neutering–An Evidence-Based Approach
Benefits and Risks of Neutering–An Evidence-Based Approach | The SkeptVet
wow! good video! I have been thinking more about this lately and not wanting to put NJ through a big surgery - I have also been told she will get cancer if I dont spay her but what about dogs that are breeders? they probably get fixed around 5 or so when retired right? dont know what I will do - but I wish she could just have her tubes tied like humans!
 

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I have also been told she will get cancer if I dont spay her but what about dogs that are breeders? they probably get fixed around 5 or so when retired right?
You increase the risk of your dog getting mammary tumors when you don't spay. These tumors may or may not be malignant - it is about a 50/50. Breeding dogs have an increased risk when they are not bred on their cycle. My Zooey developed a tumor a few years ago, but thank God it was benign. All pet dogs should be spayed or neutered in my opinion. All of mine are and will be.
 

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Spaying should be done as late as possible so ensure the dog has reached adulthood. Waiting till first heat is a good measure. No need to breed your dog though--and I advise against breeding "just because."

There is evidence that spaying/neutering can lead to other more deadly cancers than spaying/neutering can prevent. A lot of the spay/neuter is driven by PETA and other radical animal activists that don't want people to breed animals or even own them as pets. The advantage to altering is that if you remove the reproductive organs, the dog cannot reproduce and the dog cannot get cancer in the organs that are removed. Also with bitches, they reduce the risk of mammary tumors. By the same theory, if we remove all their teeth, they won't have dental issues or need extractions in the future. See what I'm saying? So I don't think its genuine to look at the "well if we cut it out, that part won't go bad" theory. There are other things to consider.

Moreover, that whole "prevent cancer" argument ignores the fact that studies have shown an increased risk of osteosarcoma (very deadly bone cancer) and other bone problems in dogs who have been spayed/neutered. The older they were when they were spayed/neutered the less likely to get bone cancer. This tells you that their hormones are integral in their growth and this is why you should wait until they are full grown. Still yet, overall, dogs who are not altered live longer on average (a fact that many animal-rights organizations don't want people to know). Mind you, in many other countries altering an animal for no medical reason is considered inhumane and vets won't do it--this gives you a measure for comparison.

Problem is that here in America people are too apt to randomly breed their dogs. So, the way people combat that is to endorse altering pets. In a perfect world, I wish people would be responsible and not breed their animals indiscriminately (or "accidentally"). But, that isn't such the case. Thus, I support and recommend doing tubal ligation/ovarian sparing hysterectomies and vasectomies. There are other "birth control" type options, but they are hard to get and there is always the risk of human error with timing, so I don't think that is a viable option.
 

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Spay before first heat

I'm curious as to know why the OP doesn't trust her poodle's breeder's advice.

From a college level course I took -
Margaret Root-Kustritz, DVM, PhD, University of Minnesota says: "For female dogs, the high incidence and high percentage of malignancy of mammary neoplasia, and the significant effect of spaying on decreasing its incidence make ovariohysterectomy prior to the first heat the best recommendation for non-breeding animals."

Dr. Root-Kustritz addresses the Rottweiler study. That was one breed with a very high incidence of osteosarcoma and may not be representative of other breeds.

Regards
 

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From a college level course I took -
Margaret Root-Kustritz, DVM, PhD, University of Minnesota says: "For female dogs, the high incidence and high percentage of malignancy of mammary neoplasia, and the significant effect of spaying on decreasing its incidence make ovariohysterectomy prior to the first heat the best recommendation for non-breeding animals."

Dr. Root-Kustritz addresses the Rottweiler study. That was one breed with a very high incidence of osteosarcoma and may not be representative of other breeds.
Laura J. Sanborn's review of the medical literature comes to a different conclusion. She says that the choice to spay or not spay is not so clear -- there are pros and cons. She says:

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female
dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogsspayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

Here's her full review:
Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs
 

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Spay before first heat

Laura J. Sanborn's review of the medical literature comes to a different conclusion.
Laura Sanborn's conclusions are not that different of Dr. Root-Kustritz.

I'd go with Dr. Root-Kustritz conclusion "Spay before first heat". An analysis by a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (DVM), a PhD, and Diplomate, American College of Theriogenologists that is a professor at the well regarded University of Minnesota carries more weight. With no disrespect to the efforts of Laura Sanborn intended.

I like what the SkeptVet.com Doctor had to say in his conclusion of a conclusion of a review of the literature: "The evidence is complex and often inconclusive, so unambiguous predictions about outcomes for individual patients are rarely justified. There is, unfortunately, a tendency for lay people and veterinarians alike to react to the complexity and uncertainty of the research data by making broad generalizations or by sticking to habit and tradition"

Regards
 

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Pamela, you are going to have tons of conflicting advice, this is not a black or white subject.

I think you should go with your breeder's advice, it is sound and she has experience. Also, it reflects part of the medical community's recommendations.

About tying the tubes, I think it's a burden on the owner and a pain in the butt to manage. Your baby will still bleed twice a year and attract males everywhere you go, or even if just in her backyard. She could still get tied if you're not careful. I don't see any advantages to that. I think you have other things to do than worry about that right now. You wanted a dog that would be a good companion for you, and easy maintenance. Don't go that route !
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Actually I just looked at my contract with the breeder and its says I agree to spay her after one year. So I will think about that too. so much information.
 

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Well, that makes it a lot easier for you. Just honour your contract and wait after she's had her first birthday.

That's what I would if I had a young female even if I hadn't signed such a contract.
 
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