Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 63 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,145 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,037 Posts
The COI is not everything when looking for a puppy health is important too The dogs being bred could have a very low COI and yet have a pedigree loaded with health problems. so be sure when looking that the breeder has both Certifiable health testing such as CHIC or OFA results.. In reds you will find higher coi due to the fact that a color or type as you will is being established. So the coi will be higher in many instances This does not mean that the dogs are Unhealthy it just means that lots of linebreeding has carefully and thoughtfully been done to produce the "Type" Or The Color. Usuall y a breeder will go in (Linebreed or inbreed then go out or outcross) I know that it seems very confusing :) But a good breeder with knowlegde in any color can surely help you decide what is best for you :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
Well what are you looking for?

A poorly bred Poodle is a poorly bred Poodle regardless of the COI. I've seen breeders brag about the low COI of a breeding poodle that itself looks like a collection of parts that all fell off the ugly truck.

Conversely, a puppy with a very high COI who has amazing and healthy parents is going to be a Poodle puppy who got a double dose of all those great genes.

I think the best thing to do is to really know the dogs in the pedigree of the puppy you want to buy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,345 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Darnit, I typed up my reply and my browser didn't send it..

I'm not looking for anything specific, after seeing the thread on frozen semen and how one stud fathered hundreds of poodles, some of which got fetal diseases, I wanted to educated myself on it a little. Thanks so much for telling me about how you can look it up on poodlepedigree, Roxy, that's tons of help.

I found an article where it said that poodles with a COI of 20%+ on averaged lived four years less than dogs with less than a 6% COI. It didn't say anything about health testing, so you don't know the rest stats on all of the dogs that were involved in that average.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,183 Posts
If you are into low COI's, which I am, the ideal is less than ten. It is stated on the Canine Diversity Project that less than ten usually means four extra years. While it isn`t the end all and be all when choosing a puppy, it should certainly be a consideration when looking for a healthy bloodline in a pup.

The higher the number, the more the common ancestors. The more common ancestors in a pedigree, the higher the risk of health issues. There is no reason now that you cannot find a puppy with a low COI who is also beautiful to look at and is extremely healthy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,686 Posts
The higher the number, the more the common ancestors. The more common ancestors in a pedigree, the higher the risk of health issues.
This is not true. The more common ancestors the higher the chance of doubling up on recessive genes that cause health issues.

However, I've seen BYB poodles with very low COI produce litters with JRD and Addisons. COI does you no good if you don't know the history of the dogs in the pedigree.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,183 Posts
I said exactly what you said, but in different words. The more the common ancestors, the HIGHER the risks.

And yes, people need to research pedigrees like crazy and get health testing information from a breeder they may be interested in. The Poodle Health Registry is a good place to start looking for problems, BUT, there is nothing in place which requires an owner to report issues that do exist, so we are relying on the honesty of the breeders to report these things, and a lot won`t for fear of hurting their business.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,145 Posts
I said exactly what you said, but in different words. The more the common ancestors, the HIGHER the risks.

And yes, people need to research pedigrees like crazy and get health testing information from a breeder they may be interested in. The Poodle Health Registry is a good place to start looking for problems, BUT, there is nothing in place which requires an owner to report issues that do exist, so we are relying on the honesty of the breeders to report these things, and a lot won`t for fear of hurting their business.
That is very true a lot of breeders want to hide stuff to keep their reputation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,037 Posts
That is very true a lot of breeders want to hide stuff to keep their reputation.
then if they cannot produce what you need to see do not buy from them Why perpetuate a problem ? That is where the issues come from . We need to test the foundation dogs in our breeding programs. Not relying on what someone has told us . If its not there. either in CHIC or OFFA then it is not happening. That is the problem not the COI. You can have a super low COI with no testing and that means nothing .. You can still be producing eye, hip and bleeding issues..God this COI thing really stitcks in my craw . Why get hung up on something that is without proof. Heath testing is proof COI without testing is nothing !!!!!IMHO That is :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,145 Posts
then if they cannot produce what you need to see do not buy from them Why perpetuate a problem ? That is where the issues come from . We need to test the foundation dogs in our breeding programs. Not relying on what someone has told us . If its not there. either in CHIC or OFFA then it is not happening. That is the problem not the COI. You can have a super low COI with no testing and that means nothing .. You can still be producing eye, hip and bleeding issues..God this COI thing really stitcks in my craw . Why get hung up on something that is without proof. Heath testing is proof COI without testing is nothing !!!!!IMHO That is :)
If a breeder is hiding that they produced a dog with addison's how would you know ? its not mandatory to report to PHR .... this is what I am talking about. There is not test for it. So you could be thinking you are getting something you want and never know about the breeders issues. This is why pedigree research is key.

I am not hung on low COI either I have experienced genetic issues with my cats that where not even related. So I already know low COI means crap same thing when people say high COI means health issues. I have seen breedings done SEVERAL times that where mother to son and vice versa and the dogs came out find. ( another breed tho) so its not all bad you just have to know what you are doing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,599 Posts
I don't understand why we are arguing about health testing in a thread about coi. Any breeder that is reputable and in their right mind fully health tests their dogs!!!! However unfortunately the coi of the dogs is just not being recognized as the seperate issue that it is. It is not to replace the health testing but rather serve as another tool that breeders can use to insure that they are producing the best and longest lived puppies that they can.

Its also being stated tha an ugly puppy is an ugly puppy regardless of coi. True no one is arguing that either. What we are stating is why can't we be working towards producing the longest living, best health, best temperament and best conformation all at the same time. To do this I would think it should behoove us to use all the tools that we have at hand to do so and not just cop out and say because I'm working on part of it I don't need to work on the rest of it.

Since there are studies like the canine diversity project that point out the importance of a low coi and if we look to other animal breeders that do not tend to produce animals with the coi levels that we see in many dog breeds it is something that we should be asking ourselves if we should perhaps be paying more attention to.

The problem is that line breeding is something that should be done for a short time to produce a specific result and then we should be again be working towards keeping our genetic diversity high to ensure the long term health of the breed by increasing the size the gene pool.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,183 Posts
If a breeder is hiding that they produced a dog with addison's how would you know ? its not mandatory to report to PHR .... this is what I am talking about. There is not test for it. So you could be thinking you are getting something you want and never know about the breeders issues. This is why pedigree research is key.

I am not hung on low COI either I have experienced genetic issues with my cats that where not even related. So I already know low COI means crap same thing when people say high COI means health issues. I have seen breedings done SEVERAL times that where mother to son and vice versa and the dogs came out find. ( another breed tho) so its not all bad you just have to know what you are doing.
How does one know if a breeder who is breeding dogs with high COI's or doing a lot of linebreeding KNOWS what they are doing? Are they breeding two particular dogs because they see a way to improve quality and health, or is it a mere matter of convenience? A number of breeders who THOUGHT they knew what they were doing when line breeding have had health issues crop up, then its a matter of "Oops, I guess I shouldn't have done that" while the poor families who bought their puppies now get to watch their dogs die. If they had researched the lines better and considered the seriousness of the recessive genes in a linebred dog, this would not have happened. And one of the ways to check into this is through the COI!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,183 Posts
So, according to ther response from the link on the Wycliffe dog at 93%, his COI is too high. But 10% is nothing to get yourself worked up about. What IS acceptable then?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,037 Posts
There is no arguing going on here the questions was What is an acceptable COI and the answer was that health testing is more important. You cannot have a low COI with no testing . What is there to argue about? The answer is buy from breeders who have health testing that you can verify and if you plan to breed KNOW Who you are buying from Do not get hung on COI it is not the end all be all tha is all No arguing ? OFFA and CHIC are where the answers lie What do you think was done before COI? Seriously ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,599 Posts
There is no arguing going on here the questions was What is an acceptable COI and the answer was that health testing is more important. You cannot have a low COI with no testing . What is there to argue about? The answer is buy from breeders who have health testing that you can verify and if you plan to breed KNOW Who you are buying from Do not get hung on COI it is not the end all be all tha is all No arguing ? OFFA and CHIC are where the answers lie What do you think was done before COI? Seriously ?
Again I state that coi and health testing are seperate things. Why shouldn't we be concerned with both??
 
1 - 20 of 63 Posts
Top