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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok: I'm not a breeder and I have no desire to be a breeder. But I've been reading that reds are all the rage (toys?) and I started to wonder how breeders GET red. Does at last one parent have to be red? Is it a roll of the dice or are certain parental colors involved?
 

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Ok: I'm not a breeder and I have no desire to be a breeder. But I've been reading that reds are all the rage (toys?) and I started to wonder how breeders GET red. Does at last one parent have to be red? Is it a roll of the dice or are certain parental colors involved?
Red is a recessive. Both parents need to carry it, but they may not always be phenotypically red themselves. Good red breeders will sometimes outcross to another color to broaden the genetic diversity of their line and improve conformation. Black is common, as you don't want to introduce any dilution or fading.
 

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Ok, so breeders might breed a black dog to a red then? Rather than two reds?
Yes, if the black dog could bring some improvement to the red line - nicer head shape, better chest, improved genetic diversity, etc. - a red breeder would certainly consider the idea. It might mean no red puppies for a generation, since red is recessive to black, but the other improvements would make the outcross worthwhile.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ok, I get it. Thanks. So breeding too many reds to each other might dilute the red then? Do I have that correctly? I had no idea that reds were such a hot color. Live and learn.
 

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Ok, I get it. Thanks. So breeding too many reds to each other might dilute the red then? Do I have that correctly? I had no idea that reds were such a hot color. Live and learn.
It won't dilute the color red itself. Rather, by focusing on color to the exclusion of all else, you run the risk of concentrating some other undesirable trait.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Oh, ok I get it now. I was thinking the red would get 'weaker' and then you'd have all apricots. So thanks for clearing that up. I'm still discussing color (future) with myself... black, red, apricot.
 

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Another reason for breeding black to red every so often is to help fix the coloring of the points of the reds to the preferred black color, and to help keep the red dark. Naturally many other factors are considered in pairing a sire and bitch, as cowpony said.


HOW TO USE THE TABLE

Select a poodle from the left column that represents the color of one of the dogs being bred , and then select a poodle from the top column that represents the color of the other dog being bred , follow the two till they meet and this will give you probable colors of the puppies produced .

Picture





Poodle Color Inheritance


There are a lot of opportunities in color mixing, but it requires a solid knowledge about the mechanisms of heredity. You can avoid color related risks by breeding only the same color poodles, but in the long run bigger gene pools will help reduce the problems of e.g. inheritable diseases. By using color mixing, we can maintain a healthy base of recessive colored poodles (white, apricot, brown, red). Until the year 2006 color mixing with poodles was subject to license in Finland.

Let’s start with the basic terminology:

Genotype: Describes the dog’s heredity.

Dominant: The ruling attribute in the phenotype. E.g. black color in a poodle.

Recessive: Yielding attribute, that appears when there is no dominant gene present. In other words, the recessive attribute shows, when the dog has two recessive elements. E.g. apricot color in a poodle.

Genes: Inheritable attributes that are located in the chromosomes. Dogs have 39 pairs that make 78 chromosomes. Half of these come from the male and the other half from the female, because gametes have only 39 chromosomes.

Inheritance could simply be described with the following example:
A black female poodle’s genotype is Bb (B = black, b = brown, black being the dominant and brown being the recessive gene)
If this poodle is paired with a black male poodle, could their puppy be a brown one? Well, it depends on the male’s genotype:
If the male is BB: possible puppy variations are BB or Bb, meaning only black puppies.
If the male is Bb: possible puppy variations are BB, Bb and bb, the last option being a brown puppy.
Recessive genes bring complications to breeding, because they can be hidden against the odds for multiple generations. Even if your black poodle has black parents and grandparents, you can’t be sure if the recessive gene will pop out in the brood eventually.
The color of the dog is determined by 11 gene pairs that are not connected to each other. Mixing colors is not as simple as in the previous example, because we need to add more variables.

Another link if this interests you.
 
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And some apricot and red history
 

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Reds are a bit of a fad right now, but that means there are many poor quality red breeders out there that aren't breeding to the standard. First and foremost, breeders should be breeding for temperament, health, and structure. Color comes after all that. So good breeders that focus on red are few and far between and will usually outcross to black to improve quality of their dogs. Breeders will also often have their dogs genetic tested to test for recessive colors like brown or red.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks that's helpful. Since I started my quest, I've noticed all sorts of colors of Poodles that I didn't know existed. I was unaware of the parti-color (and don't know what poodle experts think of that).
 

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Thanks that's helpful. Since I started my quest, I've noticed all sorts of colors of Poodles that I didn't know existed. I was unaware of the parti-color (and don't know what poodle experts think of that).
LOL. Parti is controversial. They are not considered part of breed standard in AKC. AKC will register parti and will allow them to compete in performance classes but not conformation. UKC welcomes them and has separate conformation classes for them.
 

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Mia, Christmas in June 2010
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I didn't know how political partis were until I got one. I had a beautiful black spoo growing up, and in all my years of poodle spotting I remember seeing only one parti. A friend recommended a breeder who happened to breed partis, and only after I put down the deposit did I realize what I was in for in the poodle world. Oh well.
 
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