Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Benjamin Franlkin - Senior Tpoo, Apple Butter - mpoo puppy
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I'm new to the purebred dog world. This is my first time buying from a breeder. I've always had whatever mutt showed up with some sob story on my door step, so I never had to worry about genetic testing.

I can't seem to find a checklist or a key of what I want the results of all of these tests to be. Is there a link you have to a site that could explain for me? Or could you maybe make me a cheat sheet? :D

Here is an OFA number for this dog. Is "Good" good or is there also like "Super-dee-duper" or a "Spiffy" rating that is better? I have no idea!

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
463 Posts
The top level is Excellent, but Good is a nice result as well. Moving downwards is Fair, then Borderline, Mild, Moderate, Severe. https://www.ofa.org/diseases/hip-dysplasia
If you click on the Menu, under Diseases it gives a bunch of options so you can look up some of the other results.
The only one I would be concerned with is that it looks like he is a carrier for PRA (an eye condition that causes blindness). Assuming this is the father of a potential pup, you would want to make sure the mother is clear.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,827 Posts
See this PF thread: Genetic Conditions - OFA Blue Book: What to Know In Choosing A Puppy or Breeding. It has illustrations of how to interpret.

So, are you thinking about purchasing this 10 y/o male poodle? He's a carrier for PRA-prcd, but a carrier means he has only one gene. A dog would need to inherit two (one from each parent) to develop that eye condition.

Many 10 year old poodles are energetic and playful, my last one was as strong and healthy as young adult poodle. If this one is healthy he may go on to live another 5, 6, or 7 years and be a wonderful pet.
 

·
Registered
Benjamin Franlkin - Senior Tpoo, Apple Butter - mpoo puppy
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I'm not looking to buy that dog, he is a listed sire I clicked on as an example. :)

This is NOT the dog he would be bred with, but this is one of the dams for an upcoming litter. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2058765

Doesnt the CDDY/CDDY and the distichiasis seem like maybe she might not be the best choice? I have a beagle something mix with IVD and we had to do major surgery on her back when her back legs were paralyzed. I'd HATE to go through that again. Aren't poodles supposed to be bred for those nice long beautiful legs? And from my short reading, distichiasis seems hereditary too - but maybe it isn't so bad because she had an eye exam the year before and was fine? This is starting to feel like rocket science!

I also realized.... one of these dogs is a mini and one is a toy. I know the only difference in them is size, but I SWEAR I read something about not breading a mini to a toy or a mini to a standard. I can't seem to find it. So... any ideas on breeding amongst the sizes?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,725 Posts
I also realized.... one of these dogs is a mini and one is a toy.
Just looking for clarification. Are you just noting that they're breeding both toys and miniatures or saying that the miniature dam you listed is being bred to a toy sire?

It's not unusual for breeders to breed more than one variety and to work with other breeders lines. It would be for a very specific reason if they are breeding across variety, trying to add or subtract something specific genetically, but definitely not common and only to be done by very knowledgeable breeders.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,860 Posts
The persistent pupilary membranes, from my reading affected dogs shouldn't be bred but I may be misreading that.
I would pass myself, I lost my first poodle to IVDD, and currently have a toy with distachisis, who sees an opthmalogist because although managed is on going. It can be surgically repaired.
I also have another toy who has had two knee surgeries, has kidney disease and was diagnosed with terminal cancer a year ago she is only 6.
I personally want the parents of any future puppies of mine to be as healthy as they can be, things still can go wrong but I want to start in a good place.
Which is why I got my boy from a top show breeder, he is beautiful and healthy.
 

·
Registered
Benjamin Franlkin - Senior Tpoo, Apple Butter - mpoo puppy
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Rose n Poos, I mean they are breeding a mini to a toy. Which is why I questioned it. Not that she has minis and toys and breeds both separately, but that she is planning a litter between a small mini and a toy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,230 Posts
I would pass on an intervariety breeding of minis and toys. Their structure is different and you're likely to end up with very incorrect structure or heaviness of bone.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,725 Posts
Rose n Poos, I mean they are breeding a mini to a toy. Which is why I questioned it. Not that she has minis and toys and breeds both separately, but that she is planning a litter between a small mini and a toy.
I stand by the recommendations to pass on intervariety breeding, except for the reasons I listed above. Yet, here I am with two successive sets of intervariety breeding, and not for the above reasons.

When we got our girls in 2002, I was just starting to become an informed owner. When we got the boys in 2017, I knew so much more, enough that I knew what I was getting into. None will win any ribbons but they're physically sound, so we've been lucky.

My last two sets of poodles we've called minis due to their adult size but they are both toy sire to mini mother. Interestingly to me, in each pair, one definitely looks more toy and the other, more mini. I'm not advocating for it but if you're otherwise interested in the breeder, consider asking why they're pairing the toy and mini. Maybe they are trying to breed something in or out?

Noel and Holly, nearly 3 yrs old
470996



My boys at 3 yrs, Neo and Remo
470997
 

·
Registered
Benjamin Franlkin - Senior Tpoo, Apple Butter - mpoo puppy
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
The explanation Ive been given is that the mini is a carrier for rcd4, but all of her toys are not. She said she did not want to lose the rest of the mini dam's other good genes, so she is doing this.

But this, in conjunction with the cddy/cddy status of another dog for her other planned litter makes me wary. She seems to do lots of testing and is a big advocate for testing, so I was hoping she is just doing things for a reason I can't understand.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,725 Posts
For this:
"Doesnt the CDDY/CDDY and the distichiasis seem like maybe she might not be the best choice?"

Explanation of Results:
►Chondrodysplasia (CDPA):
Dogs with N/N genotype will not have this form of chondrodysplasia, which causes the short-legged phenotype of certain dog breeds, and cannot transmit this chondrodysplasia variant to their offspring.

►Chondrodystrophy (CDDY):
Dogs with CDDY/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. If a CDDY/CDDY dog is bred, all of the puppies in the litter will have shorter legs and are also be at risk for intervertebral disc herniation, regardless of the mate's genotype.

Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk) and Chondrodysplasia (CDPA) | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory
Chondrodysplasia is a short-legged phenotype characteristic of many dog breeds. Chondrodystrophy, a separate mutation, also includes a short-legged phenotype as well as susceptibility to intervertebral disc disease.
vgl.ucdavis.edu vgl.ucdavis.edu


Additional info on the responsible gene(s) for CDDY/IVDD:

The breeds with a higher frequency of the CFA12 FGF4 insertion are the same breeds identified in the last 50 y as being predisposed to IVDD. Presence of the CFA18 FGF4 insertion is common in many breeds with IVDD, and it is possible that it may contribute to the disease; however, previous mapping within dachshunds, which are reported “fixed” for the CFA18 FGF4 insertion, show segregation of the associated haplotype on chromosome 12 with IVDD, supporting the idea that the CFA12 FGF4 insertion is the critical factor determining disease status (25, 34). Of particular interest is the lack of reports of IVDD cases in breeds such as the cairn terrier and West Highland white terrier, both of which have the CFA18 FGF4 insertion, but not the CFA12 FGF4 insertion. Similarly, the high incidence of IVDD in breeds such as the American cocker spaniel, beagle, and French bulldog that do not have the CFA18 FGF4 insertion but a high frequency of the CFA12 FGF4 insertion supports the idea that FGF4 specifically from CFA12 is contributing to the IVDD phenotype.

----
After a while of learning and investigating, it's possible to find yourself lost in the rabbit hole rather than feeling confident in your ability to make choices.
The hope in becoming informed is in recognizing the risks and deciding which you are willing and able to live with. The perfect choice doesn't always come along.
I'm not saying here to stop learning or stop asking, but only you can decide what level of risk is acceptable for you and your poodle.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,827 Posts
The explanation Ive been given is that the mini is a carrier for rcd4, but all of her toys are not. She said she did not want to lose the rest of the mini dam's other good genes, so she is doing this.

But this, in conjunction with the cddy/cddy status of another dog for her other planned litter makes me wary. She seems to do lots of testing and is a big advocate for testing, so I was hoping she is just doing things for a reason I can't understand.
Regarding her mini female with PRA-prcd, sounds to me like she's too cheap to pay for stud service with a healthy minipoo male that doesn't have those genes.

In her other situation of still planning to breed a CDDY poodle to a non-CDDY poodle, that's just stubbornness. She may "big" on testing, but she strikes me as finding out bad news but to avoid neutering/spaying, she's going to go forth with making whatever profit she can regardless. IMHO, as a breeder she's a walking disaster that's bad for the breed.

Caveat emptor. I hope you run from this breeder even if it means forfeiting any deposit you might have put down.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,725 Posts
►Chondrodystrophy (CDDY):
Dogs with CDDY/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. If a CDDY/CDDY dog is bred, all of the puppies in the litter will have shorter legs and are also be at risk for intervertebral disc herniation, regardless of the mate's genotype.
To see how this runs in the lines, view her vertical pedigree on OFA

She has the CDDY inherited from previous generations. The breeder does have the option of using a tested outside stud but chooses not to for the eye condition. The continued breeding of CDDY dogs does puzzle me. There could be information I'm not understanding clearly. The breeder could be depending on the histories of the lines bred not having developed the life altering condition. Only the breeder could answer why.

As you dive back into the pedigree, it's not uncommon for this breeder to do the toy/mini intervariety breeding. I haven't had enough coffee yet to follow it back too far, but they do breed outside her own kennel, FWTW.

I haven't checked to see if any are being or have been shown in the conformation ring.

If this is absolutely true "If a CDDY/CDDY dog is bred, all of the puppies in the litter will have shorter legs and are also be at risk for intervertebral disc herniation, regardless of the mate's genotype" then it doesn't seem likely that any in this specific line are being shown as they can't meet the breed standard.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,725 Posts
Doing an internet search brings up some interesting information which brackets some of the questions raised here. I haven't looked thru them, just skimmed so far. This breeder is testing beyond OFA, is actively involved in attention to genetic disorders, and is showing the poodle linked in OFA above, and others. I wouldn't rule them out if I were looking. Answers from the breeder to some of these questions could be valuable knowledge.



 

·
Registered
Benjamin Franlkin - Senior Tpoo, Apple Butter - mpoo puppy
Joined
·
105 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Okay. So. Here is her exact wording on the mini-to-toy breeding, which she volunteered before I even asked.

"We have testing now for rcd4 which was not available before she was born. This is old age blindness in Poodles. It is a simple Mendelian recessive. I tested all my dogs when the test came out. She tested affected. We do not want to waste the good genes she has but can safely breed her to a dog that is clear and not produce affected dogs. We did not find any toys with this and tested him as clear. His confirmation is wonderful so this is a type to type breeding. "

She says it is a "type to type breeding" but after googling I still dont understand what that means. Does she mean this is basically the same as toy-to-toy breeding? Honestly, she has been entirely upfront about all of this. She does not seem defensive at all, and has been more than willing to talk. Really, I am the one feeling stupid because she will explain one thing and then the next thing I know, there is more I still dont understand! I never expected breeder shopping would be so hard. 😂

She doesn't have my money so walking away, for me, is easy. HOWEVER, with that said, I really value how transparent she has been. I like how she was choosy about ME and what MY intentions were for the puppy. I like how she works hard with her puppies to begin socialization and training before they come home. She was recommended by somebody from the local Poodle Club. These are all things that sound like a good breeder. It's just... ugh. Those test results don't seem great, but I am not an expert at all. I also have had the thought that, okay, I've never even seen any other dogs tested for the CDDY gene, maybe it is more common than I thought and most breeders just don't know because they don't test? Like am I punishing her for providing a full more complete picture, when other dogs are easier to seem "perfect" because there are fewer tests run on them? T

I really am not saying anything bad about her at all, so I think it should be okay. I really think she loves her dogs and is trying to do well by them. All pictures she sends clearly show them being beloved family members in a normal home environment. I have more overall positives than red flags, so I am going to continue discussing with her and hopefully I can learn a thing or two about her reasoning and experience. :)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,827 Posts
Oooh, I know her and have talked to her in the past, so let me take my foot out of my mouth. She is an excellent, dedicated and honest breeder who has been doing this for decades, long before DNA testing was available. Her poodles really are a "dream". She is so careful that won't even allow bringing in an outside dog for stud b/c she won't risk it having brucellosis (an STD) and contaminating her other poodles. I know this for a fact b/c she's one of the breeders I spoke about getting my girl mated in early 2019. She was very kind about it too. On type of this, she's elderly, so with Covid, you know she's not taking chances.

This explains why she would breed her female minipoo (who is a carrier of rcd4-PRA, which is the same or a variant of PRA-prcd) to one of her toy males that does not have the gene. Statistically some of these pups will be clear and others carriers (which means they won't develop the eye condition).

You said she is breeding 'type to type'. This is where the body type matches, and should lessen the chances of some pups having heads a little too big or small for their bodies, or other odd physical attributes, like the front, back, or all 4 wheels on a pickup truck used for a small car, causing a sloping back. In this planned mating, if one of the pups turns out to have a slightly odd body shape, she will point it out if it's not visible to you. And she generally sells her pups as pets not to be bred, so you'd get a poodle that's cute but not perfect for the show ring.

But this, in conjunction with the cddy/cddy status of another dog for her other planned litter makes me wary.
Okay, so the cddy/cddy status means that dog has two copies of the gene, which it got from each parent. I would expect it to have legs shorter than usual for the poodle breed standard. A dog that is N/N means Normal; it does not have the genes. A dog that is N/cddy means it has one gene each. It's unclear if she's breeding the affected (cddy/cddy) to a clear dog or a carrier; I'd hope it would be to a clear dog (although I'd rather see her use a stud from another kennel w/o the bad gene.)

I still would be take a pass on that particular little, for this reason:

Chondrodystrophy (CDDY):

  • Dogs with N/N genotype do not have this chondrodystrophy variant and therefore are not predicted to be at increased risk for intervertebral disc disease.

  • Dogs with N/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. They will transmit this CDDY variant to 50% of their offspring. Matings with N/N genotype dogs are predicted to produce 50% shorter-legged puppies at risk for intervertebral disc herniation.

  • Dogs with CDDY/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. If a CDDY/CDDY dog is bred, all of the puppies in the litter will have shorter legs and are also be at risk for intervertebral disc herniation, regardless of the mate's genotype

So in a N/CDDY pup, there is still some risk it would one day have disc herniation. You problably would not want to do agility sports with a pup that has one or both CDDY genes and restrict jumping off furniture as it gets older and to have pet insurance.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,725 Posts
I really value how transparent she has been. I like how she was choosy about ME and what MY intentions were for the puppy. I like how she works hard with her puppies to begin socialization and training before they come home. She was recommended by somebody from the local Poodle Club. These are all things that sound like a good breeder
The relationship you build with your breeder is absolutely important. What does your gut, not your spreadsheet say? You are doing so much more learning and checking than many do. Do you feel you have enough information to trust your gut now? You can keep asking questions, of course. What answer would be a dealbreaker now?

Is this a breeder you feel comfortable with?

If you haven't already, I'd review whatever purchase contract/health warranty/guarantee they offer and make sure you understand all of it and can accept and live with the terms. That can sometimes help in making a decision.

I still would be take a pass on that particular little, for this reason:
This is NOT the dog he would be bred with, but this is one of the dams for an upcoming litter. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2058765
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,950 Posts
This has been such an informative thread to read! I’m glad you’re walking away from a toy to mini breeder. I’m a novice, but that doesn’t seem right on it’s face, no matter how likable the breeder. My default is the PCA recommended tests and I’m going to take a wild guess that they would not condone the match. Good mini’s are hard to find, but if you are patient and persistent, it will happen.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,725 Posts
I also have had the thought that, okay, I've never even seen any other dogs tested for the CDDY gene,
Complete sequencing of the dog genome began in 2003 and was completed in 2005.

The CDPA retrogene was first described in 2009. The CDDY retrogene was discovered and described in 2017.

This is still all quite new. Before DNA testing came about, and became readily available to people outside the original small scientific circle, phenotype testing (basically, the you-can-see-it physical expression of a condition) and knowledge of pedigree and traits transmitted thru lines were all there was to go on.



I understand and generally agree with the feelings to not breed intervariety by those who are not knowledgeable, but it has been done historically, not only toy/mini but also mini/standard with specific purposes in mind. I've looked off and on for a year or more trying to find any official stance from any breed club or registry, with no real luck yet. The closest I can find is worded sort of vaguely in the Illustrated Breed Standard. I'll put that at the bottom.

Read all or skip to
I. Introduction
A. Breed history

Read all or use "Find on Page" browser feature to search "intervariety"

Read all or skip to
I. Introduction
A. Breed history

Read all or skip to
Alice Lang Rogers, The Miniature Poodle: Glimpses Past and Future (Mrs. Rogers was AKC Gazette Poodle columnist during the later 1930's; this may come from the Gazette, 1937.)

It seems the Red poodle we know today comes from a mini/standard cross

Some serious sciency info here. Read all or skip to Context 3

and

an interesting thread here in PF

From the Illustrated Breed Standard:
Size, Proportion, Substance
Size: The Standard Poodle is over 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulders. Any
Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard
Poodle.
The Miniature Poodle is 15 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders, with a
minimum height in excess of 10 inches. Any Poodle which is over 15 inches or is 10 inches or
less at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Miniature
Poodle.
The Toy Poodle is 10 inches Or under at the highest point Of the shoulders. Any Poodle
which is more than 10 inches at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from
competition as a Toy Poodle.
As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature
Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding fac-
tor when all other points are equal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,230 Posts
My feelings on intervariety breedings are that there should be a genuine reason for it. I'm more okay with the idea of intervariety breedings to outcross standards due to the small gene pool in spoos. It seems like the most appropriate way to increase genetic diversity. But of course should only be done very carefully with health and structure in mind.

I probably would not agree with this breeder's reasons for intervariety breeding. I can understand their point of view, but I feel that when breeding dogs you have to breed with dogs outside of your small gene pool. Otherwise your lines will get horribly inbred. So I am not that fear of brucellosis makes sense to me. It seems that it's a necessary risk if you want to breed with a healthy gene pool. And there is a test for brucellosis. You can't just keep crossing your own dogs together forever.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top