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I am not starting this thread to beat these people up. I think most people who go onto their web site and phr can see what is going on here, but they must be selling pups like mad.

redpoodlepups

Lucy was bred to Toby and had pups in January 2010 ... Toby was not even 2 then.... and Lucy is from Dugan x Feebee... so cannot be two years old, if Dugan is her father (as he is 3) -what is going on here??? both Breeding dogs are under 2!!!!

Then Dugan and Bindi... this is a repeat litter.. and I think it is for the third time (?) I do not know because no pedigrees are listed, except for males....

and then... :doh:

a miniature to a standard ? seriously? and I do not think you can call that a poodle....

and AGAIN Rosie cannot be 2 years old, because she is a Dugan daughter....



and then on top of this there is a phantom litter, which is being repeated again in spring.....



and from 2008

8 January 2008 (Silken's Splinter Cell x Simons Red Silken Jewel)
30 July 2008 (Dugan x Simons Red Silken Jewel)
26 July 2008 (Dugan x Silken Free As A Bird)
06 August 2008 (Two Ton Tugs At My Heart x Two Ton Torid Affair) not sure if silken ... but it says on phr
15 August 2008 (Dugan x Silkens Summer Sunset)

Would someone please tell me what is going on!??!

I thought this breeder was well respected? Am I wrong here?
 

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First, I would like to say that Lori Silverthorne at Silken Poodles is a very dear friend of mine, and sadly, I think she is being picked on simply because she IS my friend. Using my own words in the first post is personal Jak. If you have a bone to pick with me, spit it out would you? I am deeply saddened and surprised at you Jak. You have always been bright, and even though you are only sixteen, I have the utmost respect for you and your opinion on this forum. You are educated and keen, and I am really shocked you have stooped to this. Questioning someone's breediing practices is definately all fine and good here because if all of this stuff were true, I would be questioning Lori myself, but FACTS are what matters, not innuendo, not misinformation, not someone else telling you it must be so...

I just got a call from Silken so here are the facts:

Lucy has NOT been bred yet, and neither has Toby. Lucy will be two in July, will not be bred until she is two and will be tested prior to any breeding. Toby has had no testing either and turned one in May. He may or may not be used by Silken before he is two, but will be fully tested and a pre lim done on his hips prior to breeding IF he happens to be used before two, but he has not been yet….He would not have even been a year old if he indeed sired a litter then, and I would have had to have signed the litter registration because Lori and I co-own him. I didn't, so know for a fact there was no breeding. Where did you get this information?

Dugan and Bindi have only been bred once. They will be bred again this summer for their second litter not their third. Silken waited to repeat this breeding to see what the pups from their last litter matured like. Where did you get this information?

If you read the “Arbitrary or not” thread here, some people feel that breeding a Standard to a Toy, Mini or Moyen (Klein) is a good way to help fix some of the problems Standards are seeing right now. The CKC considers all the sizes one breed with different varieties. These pups CAN be registered.. Rosie is a very petite Standard, barely 18” tall and barely 30 pounds. The only issue I could see breeding mini to standard would be if the mom was the mini. No respectable breeder in Canada who is a member of the CKC would risk selling unregistered pups of any size because if you do and are caught, you can lose your membership to the CKC, be publicly reprimanded and face a hefty fine for doing so. Where did you get this information?

I did not realize there was bias here regarding phantoms and partis. Silken will be breeding Tally, the mother of her last phantom litter a full year and a skipped heat from when she was last bred and pending how this litter matures. These pups are CKC registered. Where did you get this information?

A breeder does on occasion have an accidental breeding (thank God I have not) and one of the 2005 litters was completely unplanned, and this was something Silken was neither happy about or proud of.

Silken purchased a puppy out of Two Ton Tugs at my Heart and Two Ton Torrid Affair, but there were registration issues so that pup was sold and spayed. I personally do not understand what this part of this post is about?!

Perhaps one should check facts before they get their panties in a twist.
 

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According to PHR Silkens Bird Of Paradise "Lucy" will be two years old 26.june. she is born 2008. Or are we talking about another Lucy ?

But they say that she will be having pups this fall so that should be ok?
Where did you see that she had pups in jan.
 

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According to PHR Silkens Bird Of Paradise "Lucy" will be two years old 26.june. she is born 2008. Or are we talking about another Lucy ?

But they say that she will be having pups this fall so that should be ok?
Where did you see that she had pups in jan.
Yes. Where DID you see that?
 

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I've been trying to stay out of this one....but, here goes....
Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.
The saying goes "People in glass houses should not throw stones". I think anyone who starts a thread in an obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation is inviting and should expect backlash. Breeder bashing tells me more about those that participate in it than it tells me about the breeder they have set out to discredit.
Just my two cents worth...now I'll go back to simmering on the back burner.
 

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I personally feel that everyone on here has been quite respectful and careful lately not to BASH breeders after a very lengthly and sometimes heated thread about informing breeders when they come up on here so they can have an opportunity to enlighten us or refute what is being said. Threads have been started asking questions about specific breeders, others started to enlighten prospective buyers, but I do not feel there has been bashing going on. Until now. Everything brought up about this breeder in this thread is misinformation. And I am fairly certain this information was not gleaned from this breeders own web site. Just saying...
 

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Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.
Agreed, well said Vibrant. That's exactly how I see this thread.
 

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I am certainly no expert on either breeding or poodles, but as Arreau said, I am positive that poodles are all one breed - just different sizes. I looked for a long time for a Standard poodle that is maybe 16/17 inches at the shoulder. When I first started looking I looked on the Dogs in Canada site and from there checked the breed standard and discovered that was within the breed standard for a Standard Poodle. However, once I started looking I discovered that the "norm" nowadays was WAY bigger than what I wanted.

Through a friend in the local kennel club, I found a breeder of Minis and have bought a black female puppy only I haven't got her yet because I am paranoid about Parvo after my son's dog was her last summer when we realized he had Parvo. Anyway, my breeder has shown poodles successfully for many years. When I asked her about Spoo sizes, she said that breeders in the States were breeding Standards to Minis to bring the size down but the Standards would still be within the breed standard. My breeder is a very ethical breeder and breeding Standards to Minis is acceptable to her and I am confident that it is acceptable to the Canadian Kennel Club as well.

I don't know Jak but perhaps he/she is a friend of Pendragon and is getting defensive because Pendragon have been criticized here.
 

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Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.
The saying goes "People in glass houses should not throw stones". I think anyone who starts a thread in an obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation is inviting and should expect backlash. Breeder bashing tells me more about those that participate in it than it tells me about the breeder they have set out to discredit.
Just my two cents worth...now I'll go back to simmering on the back burner.
Bold is min.
While this may be true, the information about the Pendragon poodles happens to be 100% true. They breed their dogs young, old and back to back. That's why they removed some of the information after posts on this forum. On the other hand the information about Silken poodles seems to be misinformation.

This is a public forum and we can and should be able to discuss breeders practices (good, bad or indifferent) without the fear of being flamed for saying something negative. A lot of newbies to the breed come here to find information on the breed and breeders and should be able to find honest information, not just political correctness. :(
 

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Bold is min.
While this may be true, the information about the said breed happens to be 100% true. They breed their dogs young, old and back to back. That's why they removed some of the information after posts on this forum. On the other hand the information about Silken poodles seems to be misinformation.
:(
Sorry, I may be being dim, but I don't understand the above. It sounds like you are saying the information is 100% true. The information about Silken???

But then you say the information about Silken poodles seems to be misinformation!!

That sounds like a contradiction unless, as I said, I don't get what you are saying.
 

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Sorry, I may be being dim, but I don't understand the above. It sounds like you are saying the information is 100% true. The information about Silken???

But then you say the information about Silken poodles seems to be misinformation!!

That sounds like a contradiction unless, as I said, I don't get what you are saying.
Fixed the above post, so there is no more confusion. The info about Pendragon is true and the info about Silkens is not.
 

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Jak you are priceless! I see this thread as a commentary on hypocrisy. I find it revolting that someone would ridicule PF members here and trash them elsewhere for being critical of someone's breeding standards (b/c they love dogs and the breed). Then turn around and start a thread, completely out of the blue btw, criticizing their own competition (a Canadian breeder of pet quality red Standard Poodles).

How do prelims = "fully tested"? They call them prelims for a reason. I don't care what anyone says, I can only see one reason to breed dogs under two and it certianly isn't to improve the health of the breed.
 

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I've been trying to stay out of this one....but, here goes....
Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.
The saying goes "People in glass houses should not throw stones". I think anyone who starts a thread in an obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation is inviting and should expect backlash. Breeder bashing tells me more about those that participate in it than it tells me about the breeder they have set out to discredit.
Just my two cents worth...now I'll go back to simmering on the back burner.
When I joined this forum, it was common practice to discuss breeding practices of individual breeders (some good, some not so good, some abhorrent) and as long as FACTS were being presented it was all good. This practice continues today (and I'm fairly certain it won't stop anytime soon) and that's alright because it does help to educate the general public as to what to look for in a responsible breeder.

I guess I don't see any of the existing threads as an "obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation" as much as an "obvious attempt to educate people who are new to the process of researching breeders".

As long as there is nothing untrue or embellished in any of these threads, I can't see how it can be construed as "bashing" - it's discussion... This is what mature people do. Discuss and debate. It's healthy and it's good as long as it doesn't get personal or flaming.

Anytime a breeder's practices are called into question, that breeder (or anyone who conducts similar practices) is more than welcome to join in the discussion and debate. Sometimes practices are changed or adjusted, sometimes websites are simply edited or modified to hide the offending information, sometimes nothing changes and life goes on as usual. That's what I find so great about this planet - no one is perfect, everyone is on their own personal journey and we learn and grow at our own pace.

Personally, I am grateful when questionable breeding practices are brought to light so things can be changed for the better if possible (or if they aren't changed, people can know what to steer away from.) However, sometimes what one person finds questionable or unacceptable, another person may not find any fault whatsoever (for example, it doesn't bother me - a PET owner - in the slightest, that a breeder may decide to breed for a parti or phantom litter as long as health testing has been passed, the bitch isn't being bred every heat and the puppies are strong and healthy. I understand that these colors/patterns cannot be shown in AKC conformation, but they CAN be shown in UKC conformation and in AKC performance events and they can also become a beloved member of a wonderful family!!)

I can't say that I've ever seen what some members describe as breeder "bashing" on this forum (not before I was a moderator, and not since becoming one) I've seen breeders' practices questioned - and as long as there is nothing untrue or fabricated and the discussions stay civil - I can only perceive this as healthy education. JMHO
 

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I've been trying to stay out of this one....but, here goes....
Jak, tell me if I'm wrong, but I really and truly don't think you started this thread to 'beat up' ANYONE. I think you started it, in a very clever way, to point out how wrong it is to single out any one breeder, based on their website, and throw them to the proverbial wolves. You knew this breeder would be hotly defended by some on this forum. No breeder is perfect..fault can be found in anyone, by anyone else.
The saying goes "People in glass houses should not throw stones". I think anyone who starts a thread in an obvious attempt to harm the competition's reputation is inviting and should expect backlash. Breeder bashing tells me more about those that participate in it than it tells me about the breeder they have set out to discredit.
Just my two cents worth...now I'll go back to simmering on the back burner.
Cherie- you know I think you are a great person, but I must admit I see this thread the same way Vibrant has posted. I think Jak, was likely more surprised at what he seen..........note Nevar is getting a silken poodle......most of seen that and went to Silkens website. I dont think this was to bash you but maybe say hey people need to look at all perspectives of breeders. You started the thread on Pendragon, and it went exactly the way it should of. It put the truth on the table.

Are there some misunderstandings in what Jak posted, maybe so and you clairified that, which is good. :)

EDIT TO ADD, I dont know that bashing is the word either as Cherie originally mentioned she had not felt it was bashing until now - although threads like this AND Pendragon do muddie up the water........But I also think they are needed!!
 

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I dont think this was to bash you but maybe say hey people need to look at all perspectives of breeders.
I would've bought this, Olie, if Cherie's exact words hadn't been used at the thread's inception... It was definitely personal IMO. :(

And I agree - all perspectives of breeders should be looked at - OR NONE! And since that isn't likely to happen (no breeders' practices being dicussed here EVER) then it is fair that everyone gets a turn with the "wolves"! Just keep it true, keep it calm, keep it fair - and don't allow your personal dislikes of a member color your posts! Just sayin'
 

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Fixed the above post, so there is no more confusion. The info about Pendragon is true and the info about Silkens is not.
Well I think that Silken does have a history of breeding young and either untested or minimally tested dogs. Dugan was just over a year old when they started breeding him. If you look on OFA, he was not tested for more than a year after he had started breeding (may have had prelim hips but eyes and NE were done a year later.... no information listed about SA, thyroid, VWD etc). It is unclear what testing has been done on the Silken bitches since I can't find anything listed on OFA for them. Does anyone know how old the dam and sire of the current Phantom litter are?
 

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However, sometimes what one person finds questionable or unacceptable, another person may not find any fault whatsoever (for example, it doesn't bother me - a PET owner - in the slightest, that a breeder may decide to breed for a parti or phantom litter as long as health testing has been passed, the bitch isn't being bred every heat and the puppies are strong and healthy. I understand that these colors/patterns cannot be shown in AKC conformation, but they CAN be shown in UKC conformation and in AKC performance events and they can also become a beloved member of a wonderful family!!)
Yes, but the biggest problem I see with Color and Parti breeders is that the color/pattern takes precedence over every thing else. Silken is a example.

In regards to their Mini stud dog, I know they want small, Parti and Red/Apricot, but should that be more important than structure and type? Looking at that Mini, if he were plain Cream colored, would he be a breeding prospect?

In my opinion, if they go forward with him, they are going to have a really hard time down the line "fixing" the stuff he brings in. I'm specifically thinking about fronts, feet, tail set, wedgieness of head and pigment (remember our discussion of snow noses? They have good pigment now..... it would be a shame to bring in poor pigment.) Just my thoughts.....
 
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