it may end up being a distinction without a difference, but i do think high volume breeder and large scale breeder do not necessarily mean the same thing. a standard poodle breeder with, say, 3 fertile females that are bred twice a year and likely to produce 8-12 puppies all around the same time sounds high volume to me. let's say that's a minimum of 3x8=24 puppies at once. even 2x8=16 is a lot to care for. if the breeder is claiming "all puppies are raised in my home," well, that's a lot of work for one breeder, not to mention, what are the quarters like for the animals?

large-scale breeders - and this is just my opinion - tend to have more dogs for breeding and tend to kennel their dogs. this may or may not be problematic, depending, again, on how the dogs are raised. i actually have less problem with toy breeders being "large-scale" if the kennels are well planned and well kept because if you are going to talk about the importance of socialization, toys tend to have small litters, including singletons. it's probably more advantageous to a puppy to have playmates for at least the first few weeks of its life. some large-scale breeders bring new litters into their homes for the first few weeks. of course, if you have a large-scale breeder breeding 12 females at the same time, then you may well be in high-volume territory.

ultimately, it's the quality of life that a breeder provides for his/her dogs (and puppies) that matter most to me. that and sufficient knowledge and concern to breed for good health and stable temperaments. but you will find many here to disagree and want only a puppy that comes from a "reputable breeder" who keeps all dogs in his/her home.

 

I am one who has very strong feelings on high volume breeders; they are NOT for me.

Anyone who is breeding large numbers of puppies is doing it for the money. Serious hobbyists tend to already have money, and they breed and show for sport, to improve the breed. They are breeding for their next champion, and because they have a small number of quality dogs, they only need to have 1 or 2 litters per year to get another dog. They have the time to socialize these puppies and give them the best of care, including living in the house with the family. Kennels are cold and sad, and, IMHO, no place for Poodles who crave human attention.

In terms of numbers, I consider a high volume breeder anyone who has puppies at any given time. Smaller, show breeders usually require a wait, but if they do have puppies, it is one of the only litters for the year. Small breeders have a few pets that live in the home.

If someone is breeding in volume, how can the dogs be treated well? Think about the parent dogs, living in kennels. Is that any life for a dog? I don't think so. I think it's the same as a puppy mill life. I would never want to contribute to that.

I'm very happy with my small breeder who put so much love and care into my girl. She crate trained her, took her in the car, and socialized her well. If you have the choice between a high volume breeder and a small breeder--and prices are usually the same--why wouldn't you go with the small breeder?

 

Great post zooeysmom! That's how I feel too!

 

Well I very much agree with everything that Pat said.
The last four of my 7 toy poodles have come from kennel/show breeders, and I have noticed a dramatic improvement in all aspects of the puppies that I have gotten from such breeders - health, temperament and conformation have all been dramatically better than my previous poodles. And here are my theories as to why -
1) For a Show Breeder at a kennel level, Toy Poodles are not just a hobby, it is their life's work. It is their vocation - they live and breath it 24x7, 365 days a year. Every aspect from nutrition, socialization, breeding, and health are things that they have spent their lives thinking about, learning about, considering, and perfecting every day, year upon year, decade upon decade, and the results of their efforts (if they are a person of integrity who does not cut corners and does not try to mask "imperfections") shows in their results.
2) Toy Poodles produce small litters - 1-3 puppies in a litter, and to perfect a breed, you just have to have the raw materials to work with. There are so many aspects that a breeder is trying to perfect - temperament, bone structure, pigment, health, coat - I could go on and on - and all in a package that falls within a one inch range of height (the other varieties do not have such a strict height range, yet they have so many more puppies to choose from in a litter) - how on earth could you possibly hope to perfect all of those aspects of a breed with a litter of one or two?!
And I shudder when I see breeders with one male that they breed to a dozen females! There is an art and a talent, and there should be a specific plan to choosing a pairing. Even if both parents are Champions, it does not mean that the qualities that they carry will combine to make as good or better offspring - I know that there is a lot more to it even though I probably don't even know the half of it. Whenever you find a small scale breeder who brags of having "great lines", they are always, always speaking of the lines of one of the larger scale kennel breeders. But possessing good lines in your handful of dogs does not necessarily mean that you know what to do with them! To me it just makes good sense to go directly to the kennel that produced those great lines - THEY have already proven that they know how to produce greatness over and over again!
3) You may have noticed how long I wait, and how I struggle to find everything that I want in a puppy from my kennel breeder - sorry, I just don't want any puppy, I have a whole list of physical, temperament, and of course health traits that I want in my next puppy, and even with a higher volume breeder, it still takes years for the exact right match for me to come along - to wait for such a puppy to come along from a home based breeder who has maybe 0 - 8 pets available per year would be an absolute farce - I would have a better chance of hitting the lottery!

 

Poodle Papers: Fall 2012

Check out pages 28-30. This is why I don't agree with high volume breeding :angry: I believe the Toys are from Dalin?

 

there's a whole thread on this. much uproar at pf and many attacks on tiny poodles for standing by her breeder. but the bottom line is that if you look at the photos that accompanied the original article (which you are citing here) and the photos ultimately produced in the pf thread by the author of the original article that she claimed were presented at trial, there is no way the photos entered in evidence show the dogs in that condition. there's a serious issue of misrepresentation, which i suspect is why the author of the article simply deflected questions about when the photos accompanying the article were taken and in whose possession the dogs were at the time.

let's just say that the author of the article disappeared from pf without, apparently, following through on her threat to bring in the pca attorney and to sue. you can read through the thread yourself, which i suggest might actually prove more informative than drawing conclusions about the condition of the dogs while they were in the possession of the breeder based on photos in the pca article.

 

Thank you Pat, there is no point to rehashing this nonsense.

Anybody who is interested in the actual conditions at Dalin Kennels is welcome to go visit them or to speak to someone who has such as the four people who have picked up puppies in the last few weeks (including a forum member who read every word of that thread), or my good friend who was there just this week.

 

I would consider this to be an example of a high volume/large scale breeder.
They have puppies all the time and are in business to make money. It is their occupation. To their credit; they admit this.

They don't prove their dogs in any form, except breeding, and their breeding stock doesn't also doesn't come from dogs that have been proven. There is no posting of much health testing of their stock, however they claim to do "research" to improve health and genetic diversity. They do provide links to pedigrees.

Red & White Standard Poodles for Sale from Family Affair Standards

I think there are members here who have dogs from this operation and I think most are very pleased with their dogs. I don't, in any way, mean to disparage their decision to get a dog from this breeder or their dogs.

Everyone has to make their own decisions. It just wasn't for me. Among other reasons, I didn't want a pup that had been churned out of a damn that was bred again and again and again and again and again... and that had no experience with living in a house.

 

...
What are the pros and cons of buying from a high-volume breeder, assuming the dogs are treated well? ...

I would not assume that the dogs are treated well. In fact, I would assume that the dogs of high-volume breeders are not treated well. The saddest poodle I have ever seen in my life was a breeding bitch owned by a high-volume breeder. Her eyes just pierced my soul with their plea to "get me out of here." Or at least that is what I thought (and still think) she was trying to communicate. I did get her out of there. She was my first poodle -- a retired breeding bitch who came from a high-volume breeder. She came to live with me when she was 6 years old and she had a happy life with me until she died when she was almost 15.

With the help of an experienced breeder, I bred my beautiful Cammie in 2014 and I saw first hand how much time and effort it takes to raise a litter of puppies. Cammie had the luxury of being a well-loved poodle raising a litter in her own home with all the support she needed from her human. Can a sad poodle who has spent her life in a kennel get pregnant and whelp a litter? Yes. Will the puppies grow to be 8 weeks old and go to new homes? Yes. Will they be cute? Yes. BUT I am 100% sure that the puppies of pampered mommas like Cammie -- puppies that have been handled, groomed, socialized, and exposed to normal home life by good hobby breeders -- are getting a much much better start in life. Mommas that are tragically sad and kept in kennels and not loved and nurtured cannot possibly impart security and confidence to their puppies. I think that makes a difference. Breeders that are doing this to make a living cannot possibly spend the kind of time supporting the mother and nurturing the puppies that I did. There are hundreds of ways to cut corners. Raising this litter was worth it to me because I got the satisfaction of keeping a happy puppy who got the best possible start in life and of sending 4 other happy, confident puppies off to fabulous homes.

I would absolutely definitely avoid high-volume breeders. I'd look for a breeder who is clearly bonded to her (or his) dogs and who has them living in the house with the family, as part of the family. The very best breeders keep their poodles for their entire lives because the dogs are in fact part of the family, not just puppy producers. Those breeders are not easy to find and may not have a puppy when you want one. But they are worth waiting for.

 

Apart from living and breeding conditions (which can be good on a large scale if care and work are undertaken) To have a well balanced human socialized dog time needs to be spent with the puppies and a "family". Their dog socialization is taken care of by their Dam and siblings. Human socialization is a different thing and it is difficult to impossible to socialize more than 20 puppies, period. They will go to their new home wanting to play "puppy play" (poodle pogo land sharks) It will take many months to properly socialize them and many will be surrendered to rescue or worse. Few people have the knowledge and the experience to train a standard poodle 10-12 weeks old and not human socialized. Minis and toys are only easier because of their limited strength.
Eric

 

And limited number of puppies - a toy breeder could have 10 litters on the ground and not have twenty puppies, but two Spoo litters would likely be 20 or more puppies!

 

And I don't know why so many people IMAGINE that a larger scale breeder is just one person taking care of a multitude of dogs and puppies - breeders can have families, staff, and visitors, all of whom contribute to the dogs care and socialization.
Bottom line, it can be done well, I know because I have raised four puppies from kennel breeders, and I have numerous friends who have done so successfully as well. And you have watched Timi grow up in this forum - how many training or social issues have you heard me ask for help with on her?
Let's see - once she was scared by a motorcycle parade, and it took her three try's not to get anxious on that block again.
And um, she doesn't like it when a dog 4 times her size try's to mount and hump her on a slippery floor where she can't get away from him.
Those are about the most vexing issues that I can recall her having since she arrived - did I forget something?

I am not trying to argue that a kennel breeder is better than a home breeder, just that when it comes to finding a WELL Bred tpoo of the color, sex, size, health, conformation and temperament that you wish, good luck waiting for that to pop out of some bodies house pet!
Not so with Standards and Mini's, but it would be nearly impossible for me to find the kind of tpoos that I have had from a home based breeder. That is just the reality of Tpoos - either accept it, or if you don't get lottery level lucky, decide to settle on a bow legged, round eyed, flying nun eared, stumpy tailed 12 pound toy that needs $10,000 worth of knee surgery and is blind by age 5.

 

don't forget that if you have a toy breeder like gail zamora, she has said you can't just avoid the longer backed oversize toys because you take a much greater chance of destroying the gene pool that way. makes sense, really. i think this is why sometimes with smaller breeds, you will find a sire especially that has never been shown, let alone won, in the conformation ring. something else was more important for the breeder's program.

 

Actually it is more typical that the Sire will be a champion (and in-size), and the dam not shown and over-sized.
Why, because a male can be a parent to more puppies than a female, and a slightly oversized female can carry and whelp more easily.
But long backs? Nope, nope, nope!

 

well my lowchen male's littermate was sent to a breeder in germany. he was never shown, but used for breeding and produced some champions - a couple have even ended up in australia. as for long backs, zamora has an interview with poodle review magazine on her site where she talks about her experience with breeding only using dogs that meet the standard.

 

I guess that they all have their own philosophies - that is not one that I have heard of.
And sure, there are cases where a male may not be shown and still sired champions, and there are plenty of female champions a well. I am just telling you what is more typical in toy poodles - more males are finished than females, but plenty of females who are not finished are bred and are top producers.

 

I have experience from visiting a breeder with many dogs in her home, but not necessarily a high volume breeder that pops out puppies every month. Really, if you have a lot of dogs, there are common negative points that come from it.

This was the first breeder I have ever visited, so I had no prior experience on what to expect. I did do some research and she was recommended to me by a well respected show breeder, so I went for it. I came and there were about 5 female dogs, jumping up and barking behind a gate. In that gated room was another gate containing two stud males. So there were 7 standard poodle dogs in total raised by a lone woman plus a large litter of puppies. The dogs were not well groomed at all and hardly brushed, and when I went to meet the females all of them jumped at me from all directions.

The puppies, I may add, were kept in a separate BARN free to run amok and play. No heating system whatsoever in the cold winter month except for a lone heat lamp and a blanket. The woman brought the puppy I was interested in out of the barn and into her home and he was clearly shy, and stayed in the corner not interested in any of us. When I went to go pet him his mother growled at me.

What I gather from all of this is: All of those dogs were clearly too much work for her and not at all trained to my eye. She did not have the ability to keep them well groomed as a poodle should be. The puppies were not raised in a family household and were not open to accept human touch as readily as a puppy should be. Even though she seemed like a well respected breeder, I do not feel comfortable now getting a puppy from that situation. 7 dogs are just too much to handle for one person alone and the great care it takes to properly raise a litter. And let me just say, the dogs were shown in conformation, health tested, but how they were raised? The litter was also older, around 4 months which goes to show she did not have homes lined up for them.


That time, I wanted a puppy NOW and he seemed very "quiet" (now I know he was timid) and I placed a deposit on the male puppy. Few days later, complications arose during the pick up date and out of all situations in the world we did not end up getting that puppy and I am so GLAD. Mira was raised in a home environment in the kitchen and brought on car rides to socialize with groups of people. The breeder only had her one standard and it was her mother and Mira's full sister out showing (this was a repeat litter). I am so, so, so, glad that it happened the way it did.

 

There is a Toy Poodle Breeder on Facebook who brags about all her puppies being home raised (horrible conformation, no health testing), and then she shows pictures of 25-30 poodles, male and female in her kitchen, 30 poodles laying on her sofa, bedrooms with 4-5 pens full of puppies and mama's and I think her house must be disgusting. All of those intact dogs running around everywhere, marking and fighting and how could she possibly know who is breeding whom. I would much rather see those dogs in a well run kennel.
And then when I see Spoo breeders with numerous intact large dogs living in their home, but all you ever see is pictures of one or two of them in their living room - one has to wonder how are all of those other intact dogs being safely and cleanly kept in their home? Seems to me that the only way is if they are all stacked up in crates somewhere, and perhaps they rotate letting them out for an hour or two each. Again, I think that those dogs would be much better off in a well run kennel...
The more I think of it, the crazier it seems - I don't know how anybody keeps more than one intact dog in their home safely and cleanly without the dogs doing major crate time... In fact I am taking back what I said before - breeding dogs living in a well run kennel with appropriate space to run and play are much better off than multiple intact dogs being kept in a home where the only safe and clean way to keep them would be them spending the majority of their time crated I vote for kennels?

 

And then when I see Spoo breeders with numerous intact large dogs living in their home, but all you ever see is pictures of one or two of them in their living room - one has to wonder how are all of those other intact dogs being safely and cleanly kept in their home? Seems to me that the only way is if they are all stacked up in crates somewhere, and perhaps they rotate letting them out for an hour or two each. Again, I think that those dogs would be much better off in a well run kennel...
The more I think of it, the crazier it seems - I don't know how anybody keeps more than one intact dog in their home safely and cleanly without the dogs doing major crate time... In fact I am taking back what I said before - breeding dogs living in a well run kennel with appropriate space to run and play are much better off than multiple intact dogs being kept in a home where the only safe and clean way to keep them would be them spending the majority of their time crated I vote for kennels[emoji4]

My Dane breeder often has ten or more Danes at a time. Some are older puppies starting a show career, some are adults that are of breeding age, and some are retired girls who have been spayed and are just enjoying life. They all live in the house. Puppies are born and raised in a whelping box in the living room until they are four weeks old and then are moved to the "kennel" which is really just a room filled with beds and toys and three or four kennel runs which I believe are used mostly when there's a male in the house and a bitch is in season. This is a very well respected breeder who does successfully keep close to a dozen 150lb dogs in her home with a few litters of puppies a year. Her dogs have excellent temperament and bitches often help with the raising and sometimes even nursing of the litters whelped by other bitches.
If a dane breeder can have a home like this, I think it's a little presumptuous to assume that any poodle breeder with more than a few intact dogs is keeping them kennelled all the time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

"I guess that they all have their own philosophies - that is not one that I have heard of.
And sure, there are cases where a male may not be shown and still sired champions, and there are plenty of female champions a well. I am just telling you what is more typical in toy poodles - more males are finished than females, but plenty of females who are not finished are bred and are top producers."


i'm sure you're right. i would guess that things may vary depending on where a breeder's program is at any one moment and what a breeder may think he or she needs to bring into his/her line. pretty much like people deciding to import a dog because they really feel the need to add variety.

 

i'm sure you're right. i would guess that things may vary depending on where a breeder's program is at any one moment and what a breeder may think he or she needs to bring into his/her line. pretty much like people deciding to import a dog because they really feel the need to add variety.

Right, I would imagine that if you are trying to improve your headpiece, you might bring in a dog with a great headpiece even if he has a longer back and breed him to a super short backed bitch.
At one point, I think about 15 years ago my breeder brought in some minis to get whatever she was looking for and then had to do some major work on size reduction.

 

I don't like breeder kennels unless it's on a small scale, such as having maybe 10 dogs. When I look at toy poodle breeders online, I'm more attracted to those who have just a few dogs and are raised in the home and not a kennel. If I see that a breeder is breeding a large number of dogs, I tend to think they are doing it more for the money. Maybe they're not, but that's just my personal feelings on it. I don't care about showing. My biggest concern is that the dogs are health tested, and they're AKC. When I got Kaydee in 2000 ( she was born in 1999), she came from health tested parents and grandparents, and was AKC. After that is when I really understood the importance of health testing. If I ever get another Poodle, that will be the top priority for me.

 

My spoos are from a high volume breeder and I'll be looking elsewhere for my next puppy. I love my girls but I've learned a lot in my 2 years of poodle-hood and have decided that I'd now like to support a breeder who follows what I consider to be "best practices". I started looking for a breeder who proved her dogs, who raised them in her home, who only bred a few litters a year, and who worked hard to socialize the puppies before they went to new homes. I think I've found a breeder and am now patiently waiting for her fall litter. I'm really excited to see the difference in a pup raised this way.

 

I'm reading all your *wrong* assumptions about larger scale breeders and laffing.

 

I think that what constitutes a high volume breeder and whether the organization of the breeding program is successful in terms of producing sound puppies with good health and lovely temperaments is different depending on a number of factors.

1. Are the litters large or small? If the litters are very small then having a number of litters at one time will make it easier for those puppies to learn the lessons of bite inhibition, social signals and the like that puppies only can learn from one another. Another reason to consider having more than one litter close in time (even perhaps for dogs that tend to have larger litters) is to have a foster mother available in case anything happens to the dam during whelping.

2. Does the breeder have a close and bonded relationship with the dogs in their breeding program whether the dogs are living in the home or in a kennel? None of us knows exactly how big the breeders home is or what their personal living situation is. A perfectly wonderful breeder might keep their dogs in a kennel because of a family member's health considerations, but themselves spend more hours in their kennel than in their house. Another breeder who doesn't have a lot of dogs and keeps them in their home could have squalid conditions that aren't fit for dogs or people.

3. Does the breeder have respect of other breeders and the dog sports community as evidenced through conformation, obedience, agility, tracking and/or rally titles on dogs they have produced? If yes, then I would consider that breeder in the context of the other points I noted.

This is a complex formula with many issues to be considered. Each person when looking for a puppy and the breeder from whom to get the puppy has to account for his or her own criteria. At least as important though too are the criteria that each of us sets for ourselves after we bring our pup home. Have we been realistic in choosing a breed that suits our lifestyle? Have we been honest with ourselves regarding the temperament of the actual pup we chose? Can we make an honest commitment to the needs of an animal who could be living with us for the better part of 20 years?

I think many people are just not honest with themselves about their own part in how their dogs turn out. Not to turn this into a big thing about Cesar Milan, but an episode aired yesterday afternoon dealt with a family with two three year old golden retrievers. The family had small children and the children were essentially afraid of the dogs. As a consequence the dogs had been relegated to living in the backyard. The next step would have been breed rescue or a shelter. The dogs were very pushy and had terrible manners towards each other and to people, not aggressive, just pushy. Whose fault was this? Many people have liability here, the breeder who sold two puppies to this family, the adults in the family for thinking that getting two puppies at the same time was remotely sensible given their family life and a society that thinks TV dog trainers and what is seen on TV actually reflects what is involved in raising and training a puppy can be covered in 60 minutes with commercial interruptions.