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To me this looks like a very good contract. The spay and neuter bit is good... just means it's encouraged to not do it prior to those ages. I don't think there's an issue with waiting longer. My own dog's contract was similar... it said something like no spaying or neutering prior to 1 year.
 
The one thing that's unclear to me is the line "100% refund and the return of the dog, (minus vet exam and AKC transfer fees) or a replacement puppy." Does this mean that the puppy must be returned in either scenario? Most people find it difficult to impossible to return a puppy after significant length of ownership especially after three years! Ideally the breeder wouldn't require return of the puppy for at least one of these scenarios. But it's not uncommon to see contracts in both forms. At least if the puppy has a genetic defect that results in death it should be covered.
There's another option before those two, which is a 50% refund and buyer keeps the puppy:

1.a 50% refund if the buyer chooses not to return or replace the dog, or may apply the funds toward vet bills, or another dog.
This seems like a very thorough contract, but I don't think anyone would go with the second (refund or replace) option after such a long time.

So be aware that you are looking only at a possible refund of half the price you paid. That's likely not going to go very far on veterinary bills.
 
There's another option before those two, which is a 50% refund and buyer keeps the puppy:



This seems like a very thorough contract, but I don't think anyone would go with the second (refund or replace) option after such a long time.

So be aware that you are looking only at a possible refund of half the price you paid. That's likely not going to go very far on veterinary bills.
Haha you're right. I don't know why I read it wrong. Sometimes my brain doesn't work. I think I was not completely awake. I'd be okay with the terms.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Thank you, the breeder sent me a contract but it's password protected so as soon as I can open it, I'll compare it the the above contract. This is really helpful to read. I also appreciate your comments at the top. If I was an experienced spoo owner, buyer, I might feel more confident, but being new the dog and poodle world, I'm unsure.

I've said this before, but have to repeat I am so grateful for all the knowledge and sensible advice available on this forum.
Re: Vertical Pedigree: How come I never noticed that? 😃 OFA should have that in blinking neon letters.

About the OFA good for one generation policy. This is b/c the further back you go in the generations, the odds are increased that a dog on the family tree doesn't really belong there. For example, with 16 great grandparents from 15+ years ago, it's possible that one of the eight great granddaddies was another male that slipped in.

Now technically, if the ancestry is true going back 3, 4, or 5 generations on both sides, and all dogs on the family tree really were negative for PRA-PRCD, VW, DM, or NE, then those diseases are not in that line and those litters are clear. However, I didn't see any DNA testing of the parents or grandparents for those conditions.

What's there looks good to me (especially hips). People applying to OFA for CHIC need only to select one of three other elective tests for Spoos: thyroid, cardiac, or SA. I can't recall ever seeing a poodle on OFA where the breeder got all three plus hips, it's just too expensive to get every test out there, unless the dog is a show sire cranking out dozens of litters.

It comes down to do you trust the breeder's word that she hasn't had any health problems in her lines? To her benefit, she's been answering your questions. Her poodles are gorgeous and some are titled. Her current and retired poodles are stunning. She clearly breeds quality poodles, but apparently hasn't jumped on the DNA train that's become popular over the past few years. In her case, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me unless I was looking for a puppy to show and breed later.

If you are concerned about DNA results, I suggest you ask if you can add to the contract that if a DNA Poodle Panel that you pay for yourself shows that the puppy you buy is "affected" (meaning it will develop a particular genetic disorder), that you can swap it out for a genetically clear puppy. This can feel overly demanding to any breeder especially the old school ones who feel offended that you'd think she trying to sell you a lemon, but out of curiosity she might go for it.
Thank you! I had a good impression of her in conversation and over email. But I don't any experience. I have another question about the contract, but i'll add it in a comment.
If you are concerned about DNA results, I suggest you ask if you can add to the contract that if a DNA Poodle Panel that you pay for yourself shows that the puppy you buy is "affected" (meaning it will develop a particular genetic disorder), that you can swap it out for a genetically clear puppy. This can feel overly demanding to any breeder especially the old school ones who feel offended that you'd think she trying to sell you a lemon, but out of curiosity she might go for it.

Another thought, she hasn't done the eye test, but expressed some intention to do so. Would that test be performed on the parents? The VIP, strongly advises it be done, maybe I could offer to assist in paying or pay for all of it-- I don't know how much these tests cost, I imagine they are expensive.

I'm also wondering about the interrelatedness, looking at the OFA page, I didn't see anything - but maybe I missed the information.
 
Another thought, she hasn't done the eye test, but expressed some intention to do so. Would that test be performed on the parents? The VIP, strongly advises it be done, maybe I could offer to assist in paying or pay for all of it-- I don't know how much these tests cost, I imagine they are expensive.
All the testing is done on the breeding parents, not on the puppies. The testing should be done before the dogs are chosen for breeding. For standards the testing is an annual CAER (Companion Animal Eye Registry) exam.


If the dogs have already been bred, it's barn door closed after horse gone for their pups.

Internal Relatedness and Coefficient Of Inbreeding aren't tested for OFA/CHIC qualification. I'm going to link to this thread from a few years ago to give a bit of a crash course:
 
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Proven genetic disorders are guaranteed for three years, including sever hip dysplasia, juvenile cataracts, sebaceous adenines, or Von Willabrand disease. If any of these genetic disorders cannot meet the criteria of a normal life as a companion pet, the buy may choose two options:
1.a 50% refund if the buyer chooses not to return or replace the dog, or may apply the funds toward vet bills, or another dog.
2.100% refund and the return of the dog, (minus vet exam and AKC transfer fees) or a replacement puppy.
-Do any of these diseases typically show up after 3 years?
Without double checking myself, I'm going to say yes, several or all of those can present after age 3y.

I'll say to you something that I've said to a few members when they're going thru their due diligence to find a breeder and puppy for their family. All the time and effort you're spending in learning and evaluating breeders is so much more than most do, and an excellent investment in your life with Future Poodle. Just don't lose your goal with analysis paralysis :).

You can only minimize risk, you can't eliminate it. At some point, and only you will say when that is, you will have done all the research you can but with some questions still unanswered.

That's when you need to decide what risk you can live with, then go get your puppy and live the best life you can.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Without double checking myself, I'm going to say yes, several or all of those can present after age 3y.

I'll say to you something that I've said to a few members when they're going thru their due diligence to find a breeder and puppy for their family. All the time and effort you're spending in learning and evaluating breeders is so much more than most do, and an excellent investment in your life with Future Poodle. Just don't lose your goal with analysis paralysis :).

You can only minimize risk, you can't eliminate it. At some point, and only you will say when that is, you will have done all the research you can but with some questions still unanswered.

That's when you need to decide what risk you can live with, then go get your puppy and live the best life you can.
Thank you for these good words. I've been feeling somewhat paralyzed; looking at other breeders, wondering if I should look for one with more testing, and also feeling like I should act or loose my chance to get on the list. 🙏
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
All the testing is done on the breeding parents, not on the puppies. The testing should be done before the dogs are chosen for breeding. For standards the testing is an annual CAER (Companion Animal Eye Registry) exam.


If the dogs have already been bred, it's barn door closed after horse gone for their pups.

Internal Relatedness and Coefficient Of Inbreeding aren't tested for OFA/CHIC qualification. I'm going to link to this thread from a few years ago to give a bit of a crash course:
Wow, this thread and all the links are fascinating. I have been so confused about what these numbers mean beyond interrelatedness between dogs. Great thread. Thank you!!!
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Update, at the risk of being infuriating, two other puppy possibilities from two other breeders popped up today. One I accidentally found on FB, Litters From Health Tested Poodles, when I was reading the genetic diversity post. The breeder has 1 or 2 puppies from her current litter (born 1.5 weeks ago) Elements Standard Poodles with tests from OFA Sire OFA Dam and Better Bred and PD. We spoke, she is actively involved in a variety of competitions, and sounds very committed to health and temperament testing, placing dogs according to temperament/gender rather than by color (good). She has future planned breeding with a sire that is co-owned by Arreau, all reserved, which I've taken as a good sign. She has been involved with poodles since 2012, so less experienced than the breeder I was started with in this post, but dogs fully tested. Then an email from Patriot Poodles came late last night, her Blush is about to give birth! Jean has long history of engagement and poodle breeding. I think all the tests are up to date, although I'm not sure about the sire information, (I asked).

First, is it wrong to jump ship from the first breeder I started with? Her litter will be ready a couple months later.
Second, between the new puppy possibilities, one breeder one is more experienced than the other, and 25% more expensive, but neither is outside the usual range. How to parse this out?
 
First, is it wrong to jump ship from the first breeder I started with? Her litter will be ready a couple months later.
Only if you've already signed on for a pup with this breeder. If you've not put a deposit down, no verbal or written commitments, and if/as soon as you're positive that you want to go with another breeder, a gracious "Thank you so much for your time and attention, but I've found a pup that I can get sooner/suits my preferences better/something truthful. I'd love to check back with you when it's time for my next pup" should be ok.

Second, between the new puppy possibilities, one breeder one is more experienced than the other, and 25% more expensive, but neither is outside the usual range. How to parse this out?
If you're reaching a sort of All Things Equal or Evens Out, I'd consider who I feel most comfortable working with. If they're as good a breeder as you hope you'll be involved with them for next 15 years or more, if you're lucky.

I was fortunate that I never had to consult with my girls breeder over any issues but we stayed in touch several times a year and she's asked me to provide references a couple of times for a buyer such as yourself, someone who was looking for a bit of assurance in the quality of the pups and the relationship that she and I kept up.

Your unexpected options sound very promising.
 
Wow! Two good choices! If you are sure you want to go with the new breeder, don't expect a refund of your deposit. If you can live with that, feel okay about your decision since it's extra money for the first one, and neither breeder will have problems quickly selling their puppies.

Btw, I reviewed the links to Elements and got pretty excited about them. They look top notch to me.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
Thanks for the encouragement. I hadn't sent a deposit or notified the first breeder that I settled on her for sure (I was supposed to send her an email when I put the deposit in the mail). But we did have some back and forth about the testing questions mentioned above, and unlocking the contract, and I suppose my heart was moving in her direction until these new options popped up.

Alexandra from Elements emailed me back immediately with answers to questions and three references. Her mentor/friend, and two clients: an experienced poodle owner, and first time poodle owner. They each had a different perspective, and it was very reassuring and exciting to speak with each. I think her Alice had her first litter in Jan, and now has just had a second litter. Her Alice was born in March 2017, and has earned her GC title, I think she had her first litter in January, this is her second litter in the same year. Given her youth, is this likely OK? Alice's next planned litter is not until next summer. So far Alexandra has been super responsive and forthcoming. She also sent me a contract to review, not as detailed as Natalie's re: vaccines, but seems very similar. She also asked me to identify my future vet and groomer, and I sent her 3 character references

Patriot's sire is a dual sire, GCH Patriot’s Eye of the Tiger and CH Patriot’s Place in the Sun. She also plans to do DNA testing on the pups bc she plans to keep 2.

But, I think I'm leaning towards Elements if everything works out. ooh, I feel like I'm getting closer
 
Re back to back breeding,yes it can be ok within limits. Opinions vary. See this older thread where 4 of our members who are also breeders discuss breeding frequency.
One newer thread with another breeder member who would not breed back to back.
I'm not aware of there being any medical prohibitions against b2b but the breeder must know their girls very well.

Clarifying here. I meant only a one time back to back, with a year or more in between that and the next breeding. I think 3-4 litters in a lifetime is sort of an average number.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Re back to back breeding,yes it can be ok within limits. Opinions vary. See this older thread where 4 of our members who are also breeders discuss breeding frequency.
One newer thread with another breeder member who would not breed back to back.
I'm not aware of there being any medical prohibitions against b2b but the breeder must know their girls very well.

Clarifying here. I meant only a one time back to back, with a year or more in between that and the next breeding. I think 3-4 litters in a lifetime is sort of an average number.
Thank you, I think her mother retired after 2 or 3. I spoke with all her references today. I read part of the older post. Ill go to the new one.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Thank you, I think her mother retired after 2 or 3. I spoke with all her references today. I read part of the older post. Ill go to the new one.
these are both great reads! I think a great guidance book could come out of this forum. But then again it is so fabulous to be able to ask questions, and there are lots of good threads here.

Going to review contract and hopefully send a deposit very soon!!
 
I'm a little slow on this thread (my iPad died), but excited for your choice. I would go with Element as well. But I was 'approved' by Patriot 4 years ago, before I went with my current boy, and would consider them again (they had a recent breeding with a Nola sire!).
 
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