Poodle Forum banner

1 - 20 of 41 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi Everyone, I have been searching for a poodle. Initially, I really wanted to adopt a dog from Arreau, but I live in IL and with the pandemic, I will have to wait for a while. So I have started to look closer to home. Recently I spoke with Natalie from Natalie's Poodles. Her website notes she is an AKC Breeder of Merit. She talked about how she raises her puppies in her home, socializes them, she is very engaged with her dogs in competition, all sounded good. I forgot to review the VIP Breeder list of questions before I called, so I emailed her back with a list that mostly focused on testing. She doesn't do all the tests recommended in the VIP list, but she notes that the generations back of grandparents etc, do have clear tests listed. I think I see that the past generations are sort of smattering of some more tests and some less. Is this ok? I know this is a huge ask, but could you, let me know your thoughts?
Thank you, thank you.
Here is the list of questions and her answers back.
1. How old are George (so cute and handsome) and Fiona? GEORGE IS 3 and FIONA is 3.5 years old
2. Do the sire and dam of this litter have Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) numbers assigned to them by OFA? They do not CHIC numbers...but i do have their hips, thyroid, SA... they are clear via parentage for vWd and NE.
OFA.ORG is the website to got to for health testing results and you will be able to look at parents, grandparents etc...
Their registered names are:
NATALIE'S BBBAD TO THE BONE
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?quicksearch=NATALIE'S BBBAD TO THE BONE
- I found these test results listed: SEBACEOUS ADENITIS -Normal / HIPS- Good
NATALIE'S SHAMELESS https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2155474
- I found these test results listed: SEBACEOUS ADENITIS -Normal / HIPS- Good / ELBOW- Normal

5. Have the dam and sire had their eyes checked and certified to be free of eye diseases, some of which are presumed to be hereditary, within the past 12 months by a veterinary ophthalmologist?
Eyes have not been checked yet...i have never had anyone's eyes to have genetic faults....i will get them tested as soon as i can

6. Have the sire and dam of this litter had a skin punch biopsy within the past 12 months? Has a dermatopathologist familiar with clinical and subclinical sebaceous adenitis (SA) evaluated the biopsy? (unanswered)

7. Have the sire and dam of this litter had an OFA cardiac evaluation? I do not do cardiac evals..

8. Have the sire and dam of this litter had their blood tested for von Willebrand's disease (vWD) and/or degenerative myelopathy (DM)? (unanswered, but I see some generations back have good results)

9. Has there been any occurrence of thyroid disease, seizures, bloat, thrombocytopenia (a loss of platelets resulting in decreased ability to control bleeding) autoimmune diseases, Cushing's disease, or Addison's disease in relatives of the sire or dam? Has either parent experienced any other major health problems? Their are no genetic markers for addison's disease and there are so many, many things that can bring it along with auto immune problems.

10. Will you provide written copies of the results of all tests done on the sire and dam of this litter for hereditary health problems? (unanswered)

12. Will the puppies be checked by a veterinarian before they are sold? All puppies will be vet checked

13. Which vaccinations will the puppy have when I purchase it? The puppies will have their first puppy shot at 7 weeks old and its a parvo shot

14. Will the puppy be wormed before it is sold? I will begin worming the puppies at 4 weeks old and do so every other week until they leave for their homes at 8.5 - 9 weeks.

Do George and Fiona have any titles? George is an AKC champion in conformation and Fiona did not get her championship in conformation even though she is a magnificent specimen of the poodle breed... she DID NOT like showing and did not perform well in the ring for my handler...she did great with me in the ring but timing was bad for me to show her myself.. she is a wonderful and loving girl and I am very proud of her in every way. She will participate in performance shows which way more up her alley...haha
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,035 Posts
Looks like you've done a great job with questions here. Natalie sounds like a good breeder, though I would personally prefer to see eye exams as they are a non-optional item for CHIC. Things that are clear by parentage are fine by me. Standards aren't my specialty so I cannot comment as to the relative importance of eye exams. Bar-none seems to have worked a lot with Natalie and I think they have a good reputation. Everything I see on the website looks good, though the website doesn't have a ton of detail. Things I would like more info on are the puppy contract and how the puppies are raised. All of the dogs look very beautiful and seem to have done very well in conformation and I like that she does performance as well. So I don't really have anything to criticize other than wishing the health testing was more extensive.

Maybe somebody with more knowledge can chime in about eye issues in standard poodles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thank you Raindrops! I think my only reservation was about the eye exams, bc, the VIP guide recommends not buying from a breeder without this test, but everything else seems so good otherwise, I was wondering what others thought.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,078 Posts
Our poodle puppy came from a breeder that kept the litter in his living room and often gave the run of the house. Our little guy came to us loving and ready to bond.

We've also had success with dogs raised in kennels, but we were happy to get a 'hand raised' pup.

It may just be me, but I like breeders that won't ship their dogs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Thank you Dianaleez. Yes, Natalie says she raises her puppies in her home and does a lot to socialize them to home life in and out of doors. I didn't mention much about that bc I was focused on the health testing, which I find confusing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,000 Posts
I would ask about hip x-rays, because my dogs participate in agility. A history of good & excellent hips in the breeding line might be enough; I don't have experience with that. My agility instructor's dog (lab) was just retired at 4 years due to bad hips. He came from an otherwise respected breeder of show dogs.

True about Addisons. There isn't a genetic test. The Poodle Health Registry is one source for dogs who have it, but it relies on the honesty of breeders/owners to list their dogs.

IMO, titling isn't mandatory, depending on other factors. I've heard it said that personality of the mom is key, as she will be raising the pups.

I looked at Arreau as well! Had a great conversation with Cherie. At the time there were more restrictions on importing dogs from Canada (WRT timing of rabies vaccine) and quarantine requirements, so I didn't go down that road. Current times are even more restrictive though. My friend has a Beardie from Canada. She was planning on visiting the breeder this summer, and delivering a dog for her, but it won't happen due to the travel restrictions between the two countries.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,344 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,344 Posts
FWIW, I've seen a lot of well known breeders who just don't seem to do the full minimum tests. I can only speculate that they're combining the knowledge of the lines they're using, sort of old school, with the testing of things they think might be unknowns in the line.
I'd feel so much better if I could see the minimum for CHIC done on every breeding dog, but that's not what I see as the reality.
Definitely not saying this to affect any decisions but I've said this to another member. If you like the breeder, feel good about them, feel good about as much as you reasonably can, then for the things not done, you just have to decide where you draw the line for risk. I think the guarantee will go a long way to helping there.

This is an example of a contract I could live with (the whole contract):

"...please take a moment to READ the following contract language and ask any questions you may have BEFORE you enter into an agreement to purchase one of our puppies. Please read CAREFULLY and be SURE you Understand this is a SALE of a LIVE Animal/ Standard Poodle Puppy.
• A Deposit to purchase is a Commitment for a SALE. No CASH REFUNDS on Deposits placed to Secure a SALE. Our Deposits are $500.00 USA funds and are NON REFUNDABLE.

Genetic LIFETIME Guarentee: We guarentee for the LIFE of the Puppy we SELL for ALL TESTABLE Diseases in the Sire and Dam. We stand behind: Hips, Elbows, CERF / EYES and Cardiac.
• We do not Guarentee for Cancer, Auto Immune Issues, Allergies and select seizure disorders. We make every attempt to breed a healthy puppy. Health issues that arise other than Hips, Elbows, CERF/Eyes, Cardiac are CASE by CASE between parties and are not always covered in our health guarentee.


• Our pups leave with a WELL PUPPY exam by our breeder Veterinarian, Dr ____. We also use __Clinic in when Dr is out of the office . The Health exams are in Written format and provided with each pup file.
• We STRONGLY RECOMMEND all puppy families insure their new Addition with PET HEALTH INSURANCE.

We take back our Standard Poodles as a lifetime commitment, NO CASH PAYMENTS with be REFUNDED.

• Purchase of a puppy is a LIFETIME Commitment and we recommend doing your Research and understand this is a lifetime commitment.

We provide lifetime breeder support and remain available to offer any information and updates you may need on care and treatment for all the standard poodles we place.

Should you have any questions regarding our information disclosed on this page, please feel free to contact us via phone ____ ."


Or this one (the whole contract/guarantee):


"This contract is between ___, hereinafter referred to as SELLER and _
, hereinafter referred to as BUYER(s).

Address of Buyer:
Phone: E-Mail:
Seller agrees to sell Buyer a puppy born
AKC#
Sire: AKC#
Dam: AKC#
For the sum of:
Deposit Amount:
Total Amount Due:

1) The Buyer agrees to provide a life-long commitment, comfortable environment, prompt medical attention, proper grooming and responsible care. This includes keeping this puppy/dog parasite free and up to date with inoculations, proper nutrition, which consists of a good quality feed given at regular intervals, and fresh water available at all times. The Buyer promises to provide a safe environment for the dog, and never allow the dog to roam freely without proper fencing or supervision. The Seller strongly recommends that the puppy/dog be microchipped in order to facilitate his return if lost or stolen.

2) The Seller guarantees this puppy/dog to be of sound health and temperament at the time of this sale. A health record of all shots and wormings will be provided by the Seller. This dog is in good health and free from communicable diseases to the best of Breeders’ knowledge. If the dog becomes ill within 14 days of receipt by Buyer, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Seller. Breeders will reimburse Buyer for veterinary expenses related to the illness or Buyer may return the dog to Breeders for a full refund. Buyer shall notify Breeders, by telephone or electronic mail, within 48 hours of the diagnosis of the illness. Buyer shall take the dog to a licensed veterinarian of her choice within 72 hours of receipt of the dog for the 14 day health guarantee to be effective. Buyer is responsible for health, care, and feeding of the dog as of the date of receipt.

3) This dog is guaranteed free from serious inheritable diseases, including, but not limited to, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, patellar luxation, hip dysplasia, thyroid abnormalities, sebaceous adenitis, juvenile cataracts, diabetes, and Addison’s disease. If the dog develops any serious inheritable disease during their lifetime, Breeder shall either refund up to 100% of the purchase price or provide another dog to Buyer, The choice between a refund or a new dog shall be made by Buyer. Moreover, Buyer will not be required to return the dog to Breeder in order to receive the refund or the new dog. Breeder may request that Buyer obtain a second opinion with respect to any diagnosis of an inheritable disease. The medical cost of the second opinion shall be borne by Seller.

4) The Buyers agree not to use this animal for breeding and agree to have it spayed/neutered at the age recommended by their veterinarian. It is strongly suggested by the Seller that the puppy not be spayed/neutered until it has reached it’s full growth as to do otherwise may cause long term health concerns. The Buyer understands that the AKC registration papers do not accompany this puppy as part of the sale. A copy of said papers will be included at the time of the sale. However, after the above mentioned puppy has been neutered/spayed and the certification has been forwarded to the Seller, the Buyer will receive the AKC Registration papers at no additional cost. The Buyer agrees to register the dog using the kennel name as a prefix.

5) If at any time the Buyer can no longer retain possession of this dog, the Seller is to be notified and unless the Buyer is given written permission to place said dog, this dog must be returned to Seller by the Buyer. Refunds, if any, will be at the discretion of the Breeder/ Seller. The dog will be returned with all AKC papers and medical records. Should any circumstances arise that affect the quality of life of this dog, the breeder/seller is to be informed so that they may participate in determining the future of the dog.
The Breeder/ Seller reserves the right to approve/prohibit any transfer of this animal to a third party. Under no circumstances will this dog be sold, leased, traded or given away to any pet shop, research laboratory, animal shelter or similar facility.

6) The Buyer agrees to contact the Seller immediately if any questions or concerns arise about the dog, such as housing, diet, health or training. The buyer agrees to keep the seller informed of any treatment as it occurs. This provides the Breeder/Seller with an opportunity to follow up on puppies and gives us important feedback and information on the health or our dogs for future generations.



7) It is understood at the time of sale that this is a pet quality dog and it is representative of its breed. It is structurally and temperamentally suited as a companion and/or performance dog. Training classes are recommended for a happy relationship between the dog and family.

The preceding paragraphs contain conditions established to ensure the well being of the dog, but also to uphold and maintain the reputation of quality that ___ has established over many years. The Buyer’s agreements will continue for the dog’s life and the Seller will have the right to enforce the agreements.

Seller:
Signature:
Date:
Buyer:
Signature
Date:

but not this This is only the health portion, not including their payment and shipping requirements):

SELLER'S HEALTH GUARANTEE

All Poodles bred and sold are up-to-date in their medical treatments. Dogs are checked prior to shipping and are guaranteed to be sound and in good health.
PUPPIES whose age at a date of sale precludes completion of the scheduled series of inoculations, it is necessary for the purchaser to complete the scheduled series of inoculations ON TIME, in order to protect the puppy and for this health guarantee to remain valid.
A timetable for this series of inoculations will be supplied on the medical history of the puppy. In addition, until this series of inoculations has been complete (about 16 weeks of age) the puppy should not be exposed to premises known to be suspected of being contaminated or unhealthy animals.

___ certifies that at the time of sale and to the best of our knowledge, the puppy will be free of any congenital birth defects. Our puppies are guaranteed against parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale.
Buyer has researched and is knowledgeable of the non life threatening problems that a dog may have, and agrees that these are not covered under this health guarantee.
The buyer is advised to have this puppy examined by a competent veterinarian of the buyers' choice within 3 business days to assure them that they have purchased a healthy puppy. This will be done at the purchaser's expense. Under no circumstances will __ be responsible for any veterinarian bills acquired by the purchaser for this puppy.
Minor, breed related, treatable or correctable conditions (such as Patellar Luxation, Legg-Calvé-Perthes Disease, Cryptorchidism, PRA-Prcd, etc), or any condition that may go away or is considered to be a condition which a puppy will likely outgrow, are not covered.
We give a very educated guess on mature size of pup but we do not guarantee size.

We DO NOT GIVE REFUNDS.
We will give a replacement puppy for life threatening genetic diseases.
If a health issue arises within the first TWENTY FOUR MONTHS of age which your vet believes could possibly be a life threatening genetic disease the following are the options:

(1) A written explanation from a licensed veterinarian and backed up with lab work or x-rays as to the nature of the problem.

(2) A second opinion from a Vet whom we have approved in advance to examine the puppy for signs of abuse or for life threatening congenital defect.

(3) Return the puppy and AKC papers to us at buyer’s expense. If you are unwilling to release the puppy and their papers into our possession, we will not be responsible for any medical expenses incurred (only medical expenses guaranteed are for parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale) nor will we be a part of the recovery process.

(4) Proof that the puppy was examined by a certified veterinarian no later than 3 working days after receiving the puppy.

If the Vet's prognosis is that the puppy has a life threatening genetic disease and all of the above criteria are met, we will replace a puppy of equal value when one becomes available. No problems other than life threatening congenital defects are covered in this agreement.

We offer this guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age. If at any time you transfer ownership of the puppy, this agreement is void immediately.


We are not responsible for the health of this Puppy after the 72 hours period. This is due to the possibility that the dog may become infected by a communicable disease after its delivery to the new owner.

BUYER'S RESPONSIBILITY:
  • Have the puppy examined by a licensed veterinarian within 72 hours of delivery. If a problem does arise, the Breeder is to be notified immediately following the examination of the puppy. The problem must also be verified by the Breeder's own veterinarian.
  • Provide the puppy with routine preventive care, such as, but not limited to the following:
    • Annual physical examinations by a licensed veterinarian.
    • Follow veterinarian guidelines for vaccinations and de-worming.
  • All deposits are non-refundable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I would ask about hip x-rays, because my dogs participate in agility. A history of good & excellent hips in the breeding line might be enough; I don't have experience with that. My agility instructor's dog (lab) was just retired at 4 years due to bad hips. He came from an otherwise respected breeder of show dogs.

True about Addisons. There isn't a genetic test. The Poodle Health Registry is one source for dogs who have it, but it relies on the honesty of breeders/owners to list their dogs.

IMO, titling isn't mandatory, depending on other factors. I've heard it said that personality of the mom is key, as she will be raising the pups.

I looked at Arreau as well! Had a great conversation with Cherie. At the time there were more restrictions on importing dogs from Canada (WRT timing of rabies vaccine) and quarantine requirements, so I didn't go down that road. Current times are even more restrictive though. My friend has a Beardie from Canada. She was planning on visiting the breeder this summer, and delivering a dog for her, but it won't happen due to the travel restrictions between the two countries.
Thanks Scooterscout99. Do hip x-rays show things the hip test on OFA don't is that a different outcome? Thanks, I'm learning as I go!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Good for one generation only per OFA

Mentioning this only to clarify the OFA policy.

The Vertical Pedigree makes it easy to see the generational testing all on one page.
Thank you Rose n Poos, I'll go back and check -- maybe the results were more than 1 generation...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
FWIW, I've seen a lot of well known breeders who just don't seem to do the full minimum tests. I can only speculate that they're combining the knowledge of the lines they're using, sort of old school, with the testing of things they think might be unknowns in the line.
I'd feel so much better if I could see the minimum for CHIC done on every breeding dog, but that's not what I see as the reality.
Definitely not saying this to affect any decisions but I've said this to another member. If you like the breeder, feel good about them, feel good about as much as you reasonably can, then for the things not done, you just have to decide where you draw the line for risk. I think the guarantee will go a long way to helping there.

This is an example of a contract I could live with (the whole contract):

"...please take a moment to READ the following contract language and ask any questions you may have BEFORE you enter into an agreement to purchase one of our puppies. Please read CAREFULLY and be SURE you Understand this is a SALE of a LIVE Animal/ Standard Poodle Puppy.
• A Deposit to purchase is a Commitment for a SALE. No CASH REFUNDS on Deposits placed to Secure a SALE. Our Deposits are $500.00 USA funds and are NON REFUNDABLE.

Genetic LIFETIME Guarentee: We guarentee for the LIFE of the Puppy we SELL for ALL TESTABLE Diseases in the Sire and Dam. We stand behind: Hips, Elbows, CERF / EYES and Cardiac.
• We do not Guarentee for Cancer, Auto Immune Issues, Allergies and select seizure disorders. We make every attempt to breed a healthy puppy. Health issues that arise other than Hips, Elbows, CERF/Eyes, Cardiac are CASE by CASE between parties and are not always covered in our health guarentee.


• Our pups leave with a WELL PUPPY exam by our breeder Veterinarian, Dr ____. We also use __Clinic in when Dr is out of the office . The Health exams are in Written format and provided with each pup file.
• We STRONGLY RECOMMEND all puppy families insure their new Addition with PET HEALTH INSURANCE.

We take back our Standard Poodles as a lifetime commitment, NO CASH PAYMENTS with be REFUNDED.

• Purchase of a puppy is a LIFETIME Commitment and we recommend doing your Research and understand this is a lifetime commitment.

We provide lifetime breeder support and remain available to offer any information and updates you may need on care and treatment for all the standard poodles we place.

Should you have any questions regarding our information disclosed on this page, please feel free to contact us via phone ____ ."


Or this one (the whole contract/guarantee):


"This contract is between ___, hereinafter referred to as SELLER and _
, hereinafter referred to as BUYER(s).

Address of Buyer:
Phone: E-Mail:
Seller agrees to sell Buyer a puppy born
AKC#
Sire: AKC#
Dam: AKC#
For the sum of:
Deposit Amount:
Total Amount Due:

1) The Buyer agrees to provide a life-long commitment, comfortable environment, prompt medical attention, proper grooming and responsible care. This includes keeping this puppy/dog parasite free and up to date with inoculations, proper nutrition, which consists of a good quality feed given at regular intervals, and fresh water available at all times. The Buyer promises to provide a safe environment for the dog, and never allow the dog to roam freely without proper fencing or supervision. The Seller strongly recommends that the puppy/dog be microchipped in order to facilitate his return if lost or stolen.

2) The Seller guarantees this puppy/dog to be of sound health and temperament at the time of this sale. A health record of all shots and wormings will be provided by the Seller. This dog is in good health and free from communicable diseases to the best of Breeders’ knowledge. If the dog becomes ill within 14 days of receipt by Buyer, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Seller. Breeders will reimburse Buyer for veterinary expenses related to the illness or Buyer may return the dog to Breeders for a full refund. Buyer shall notify Breeders, by telephone or electronic mail, within 48 hours of the diagnosis of the illness. Buyer shall take the dog to a licensed veterinarian of her choice within 72 hours of receipt of the dog for the 14 day health guarantee to be effective. Buyer is responsible for health, care, and feeding of the dog as of the date of receipt.

3) This dog is guaranteed free from serious inheritable diseases, including, but not limited to, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, patellar luxation, hip dysplasia, thyroid abnormalities, sebaceous adenitis, juvenile cataracts, diabetes, and Addison’s disease. If the dog develops any serious inheritable disease during their lifetime, Breeder shall either refund up to 100% of the purchase price or provide another dog to Buyer, The choice between a refund or a new dog shall be made by Buyer. Moreover, Buyer will not be required to return the dog to Breeder in order to receive the refund or the new dog. Breeder may request that Buyer obtain a second opinion with respect to any diagnosis of an inheritable disease. The medical cost of the second opinion shall be borne by Seller.

4) The Buyers agree not to use this animal for breeding and agree to have it spayed/neutered at the age recommended by their veterinarian. It is strongly suggested by the Seller that the puppy not be spayed/neutered until it has reached it’s full growth as to do otherwise may cause long term health concerns. The Buyer understands that the AKC registration papers do not accompany this puppy as part of the sale. A copy of said papers will be included at the time of the sale. However, after the above mentioned puppy has been neutered/spayed and the certification has been forwarded to the Seller, the Buyer will receive the AKC Registration papers at no additional cost. The Buyer agrees to register the dog using the kennel name as a prefix.

5) If at any time the Buyer can no longer retain possession of this dog, the Seller is to be notified and unless the Buyer is given written permission to place said dog, this dog must be returned to Seller by the Buyer. Refunds, if any, will be at the discretion of the Breeder/ Seller. The dog will be returned with all AKC papers and medical records. Should any circumstances arise that affect the quality of life of this dog, the breeder/seller is to be informed so that they may participate in determining the future of the dog.
The Breeder/ Seller reserves the right to approve/prohibit any transfer of this animal to a third party. Under no circumstances will this dog be sold, leased, traded or given away to any pet shop, research laboratory, animal shelter or similar facility.

6) The Buyer agrees to contact the Seller immediately if any questions or concerns arise about the dog, such as housing, diet, health or training. The buyer agrees to keep the seller informed of any treatment as it occurs. This provides the Breeder/Seller with an opportunity to follow up on puppies and gives us important feedback and information on the health or our dogs for future generations.



7) It is understood at the time of sale that this is a pet quality dog and it is representative of its breed. It is structurally and temperamentally suited as a companion and/or performance dog. Training classes are recommended for a happy relationship between the dog and family.

The preceding paragraphs contain conditions established to ensure the well being of the dog, but also to uphold and maintain the reputation of quality that ___ has established over many years. The Buyer’s agreements will continue for the dog’s life and the Seller will have the right to enforce the agreements.

Seller:
Signature:
Date:
Buyer:
Signature
Date:

but not this This is only the health portion, not including their payment and shipping requirements):

SELLER'S HEALTH GUARANTEE

All Poodles bred and sold are up-to-date in their medical treatments. Dogs are checked prior to shipping and are guaranteed to be sound and in good health.
PUPPIES whose age at a date of sale precludes completion of the scheduled series of inoculations, it is necessary for the purchaser to complete the scheduled series of inoculations ON TIME, in order to protect the puppy and for this health guarantee to remain valid.
A timetable for this series of inoculations will be supplied on the medical history of the puppy. In addition, until this series of inoculations has been complete (about 16 weeks of age) the puppy should not be exposed to premises known to be suspected of being contaminated or unhealthy animals.

___ certifies that at the time of sale and to the best of our knowledge, the puppy will be free of any congenital birth defects. Our puppies are guaranteed against parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale.
Buyer has researched and is knowledgeable of the non life threatening problems that a dog may have, and agrees that these are not covered under this health guarantee.
The buyer is advised to have this puppy examined by a competent veterinarian of the buyers' choice within 3 business days to assure them that they have purchased a healthy puppy. This will be done at the purchaser's expense. Under no circumstances will __ be responsible for any veterinarian bills acquired by the purchaser for this puppy.
Minor, breed related, treatable or correctable conditions (such as Patellar Luxation, Legg-Calvé-Perthes Disease, Cryptorchidism, PRA-Prcd, etc), or any condition that may go away or is considered to be a condition which a puppy will likely outgrow, are not covered.
We give a very educated guess on mature size of pup but we do not guarantee size.

We DO NOT GIVE REFUNDS.
We will give a replacement puppy for life threatening genetic diseases.
If a health issue arises within the first TWENTY FOUR MONTHS of age which your vet believes could possibly be a life threatening genetic disease the following are the options:

(1) A written explanation from a licensed veterinarian and backed up with lab work or x-rays as to the nature of the problem.

(2) A second opinion from a Vet whom we have approved in advance to examine the puppy for signs of abuse or for life threatening congenital defect.

(3) Return the puppy and AKC papers to us at buyer’s expense. If you are unwilling to release the puppy and their papers into our possession, we will not be responsible for any medical expenses incurred (only medical expenses guaranteed are for parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale) nor will we be a part of the recovery process.

(4) Proof that the puppy was examined by a certified veterinarian no later than 3 working days after receiving the puppy.

If the Vet's prognosis is that the puppy has a life threatening genetic disease and all of the above criteria are met, we will replace a puppy of equal value when one becomes available. No problems other than life threatening congenital defects are covered in this agreement.

We offer this guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age. If at any time you transfer ownership of the puppy, this agreement is void immediately.


We are not responsible for the health of this Puppy after the 72 hours period. This is due to the possibility that the dog may become infected by a communicable disease after its delivery to the new owner.

BUYER'S RESPONSIBILITY:
  • Have the puppy examined by a licensed veterinarian within 72 hours of delivery. If a problem does arise, the Breeder is to be notified immediately following the examination of the puppy. The problem must also be verified by the Breeder's own veterinarian.
  • Provide the puppy with routine preventive care, such as, but not limited to the following:
    • Annual physical examinations by a licensed veterinarian.
    • Follow veterinarian guidelines for vaccinations and de-worming.
  • All deposits are non-refundable.
Thank you, the breeder sent me a contract but it's password protected so as soon as I can open it, I'll compare it the the above contract. This is really helpful to read. I also appreciate your comments at the top. If I was an experienced spoo owner, buyer, I might feel more confident, but being new the dog and poodle world, I'm unsure.

I've said this before, but have to repeat I am so grateful for all the knowledge and sensible advice available on this forum.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,344 Posts
Til scooterscout99 drops back by I'll add a bit of info on the hip testing.

Both Pennhip and OFA hip testing are an xray evaluation of the hip but they focus on slightly different aspects, can be done at different ages (prelim and adult), and the OFA single view is contained within the three that comprise the Pennhip evaluation.
Either evaluation is acceptable for OFA but there is an additional fee for the breeder to register the Pennhip results.
The Poodle Club of America accepts either as valid tests.

Here's a link to fairly clear explanation. It won't just copy/paste normally for me:

 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,712 Posts
Good for one generation only per OFA
Mentioning this only to clarify the OFA policy.
The Vertical Pedigree makes it easy to see the generational testing all on one page.
Re: Vertical Pedigree: How come I never noticed that? 😃 OFA should have that in blinking neon letters.

About the OFA good for one generation policy. This is b/c the further back you go in the generations, the odds are increased that a dog on the family tree doesn't really belong there. For example, with 16 great grandparents from 15+ years ago, it's possible that one of the eight great granddaddies was another male that slipped in.

Now technically, if the ancestry is true going back 3, 4, or 5 generations on both sides, and all dogs on the family tree really were negative for PRA-PRCD, VW, DM, or NE, then those diseases are not in that line and those litters are clear. However, I didn't see any DNA testing of the parents or grandparents for those conditions.

What's there looks good to me (especially hips). People applying to OFA for CHIC need only to select one of three other elective tests for Spoos: thyroid, cardiac, or SA. I can't recall ever seeing a poodle on OFA where the breeder got all three plus hips, it's just too expensive to get every test out there, unless the dog is a show sire cranking out dozens of litters.

It comes down to do you trust the breeder's word that she hasn't had any health problems in her lines? To her benefit, she's been answering your questions. Her poodles are gorgeous and some are titled. Her current and retired poodles are stunning. She clearly breeds quality poodles, but apparently hasn't jumped on the DNA train that's become popular over the past few years. In her case, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me unless I was looking for a puppy to show and breed later.

If you are concerned about DNA results, I suggest you ask if you can add to the contract that if a DNA Poodle Panel that you pay for yourself shows that the puppy you buy is "affected" (meaning it will develop a particular genetic disorder), that you can swap it out for a genetically clear puppy. This can feel overly demanding to any breeder especially the old school ones who feel offended that you'd think she trying to sell you a lemon, but out of curiosity she might go for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Til scooterscout99 drops back by I'll add a bit of info on the hip testing.

Both Pennhip and OFA hip testing are an xray evaluation of the hip but they focus on slightly different aspects, can be done at different ages (prelim and adult), and the OFA single view is contained within the three that comprise the Pennhip evaluation.
Either evaluation is acceptable for OFA but there is an additional fee for the breeder to register the Pennhip results.
The Poodle Club of America accepts either as valid tests.

Here's a link to fairly clear explanation. It won't just copy/paste normally for me:

Thank you, that was interesting to read.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Re: Vertical Pedigree: How come I never noticed that? 😃 OFA should have that in blinking neon letters.

About the OFA good for one generation policy. This is b/c the further back you go in the generations, the odds are increased that a dog on the family tree doesn't really belong there. For example, with 16 great grandparents from 15+ years ago, it's possible that one of the eight great granddaddies was another male that slipped in.

Now technically, if the ancestry is true going back 3, 4, or 5 generations on both sides, and all dogs on the family tree really were negative for PRA-PRCD, VW, DM, or NE, then those diseases are not in that line and those litters are clear. However, I didn't see any DNA testing of the parents or grandparents for those conditions.

What's there looks good to me (especially hips). People applying to OFA for CHIC need only to select one of three other elective tests for Spoos: thyroid, cardiac, or SA. I can't recall ever seeing a poodle on OFA where the breeder got all three plus hips, it's just too expensive to get every test out there, unless the dog is a show sire cranking out dozens of litters.

It comes down to do you trust the breeder's word that she hasn't had any health problems in her lines? To her benefit, she's been answering your questions. Her poodles are gorgeous and some are titled. Her current and retired poodles are stunning. She clearly breeds quality poodles, but apparently hasn't jumped on the DNA train that's become popular over the past few years. In her case, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me unless I was looking for a puppy to show and breed later.

If you are concerned about DNA results, I suggest you ask if you can add to the contract that if a DNA Poodle Panel that you pay for yourself shows that the puppy you buy is "affected" (meaning it will develop a particular genetic disorder), that you can swap it out for a genetically clear puppy. This can feel overly demanding to any breeder especially the old school ones who feel offended that you'd think she trying to sell you a lemon, but out of curiosity she might go for it.
Thank you! I had a good impression of her in conversation and over email. But I don't any experience. I have another question about the contract, but i'll add it in a comment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Our poodle puppy came from a breeder that kept the litter in his living room and often gave the run of the house. Our little guy came to us loving and ready to bond.

We've also had success with dogs raised in kennels, but we were happy to get a 'hand raised' pup.

It may just be me, but I like breeders that won't ship their dogs.
yes, she does not ship and raises the puppies in her home
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
sorry for the repeats, I was trying to avoid starting a new thread. I tried, and thought I had deleted, but I see the same comments showing up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
FWIW, I've seen a lot of well known breeders who just don't seem to do the full minimum tests. I can only speculate that they're combining the knowledge of the lines they're using, sort of old school, with the testing of things they think might be unknowns in the line.
I'd feel so much better if I could see the minimum for CHIC done on every breeding dog, but that's not what I see as the reality.
Definitely not saying this to affect any decisions but I've said this to another member. If you like the breeder, feel good about them, feel good about as much as you reasonably can, then for the things not done, you just have to decide where you draw the line for risk. I think the guarantee will go a long way to helping there.

This is an example of a contract I could live with (the whole contract):

"...please take a moment to READ the following contract language and ask any questions you may have BEFORE you enter into an agreement to purchase one of our puppies. Please read CAREFULLY and be SURE you Understand this is a SALE of a LIVE Animal/ Standard Poodle Puppy.
• A Deposit to purchase is a Commitment for a SALE. No CASH REFUNDS on Deposits placed to Secure a SALE. Our Deposits are $500.00 USA funds and are NON REFUNDABLE.

Genetic LIFETIME Guarentee: We guarentee for the LIFE of the Puppy we SELL for ALL TESTABLE Diseases in the Sire and Dam. We stand behind: Hips, Elbows, CERF / EYES and Cardiac.
• We do not Guarentee for Cancer, Auto Immune Issues, Allergies and select seizure disorders. We make every attempt to breed a healthy puppy. Health issues that arise other than Hips, Elbows, CERF/Eyes, Cardiac are CASE by CASE between parties and are not always covered in our health guarentee.


• Our pups leave with a WELL PUPPY exam by our breeder Veterinarian, Dr ____. We also use __Clinic in when Dr is out of the office . The Health exams are in Written format and provided with each pup file.
• We STRONGLY RECOMMEND all puppy families insure their new Addition with PET HEALTH INSURANCE.

We take back our Standard Poodles as a lifetime commitment, NO CASH PAYMENTS with be REFUNDED.

• Purchase of a puppy is a LIFETIME Commitment and we recommend doing your Research and understand this is a lifetime commitment.

We provide lifetime breeder support and remain available to offer any information and updates you may need on care and treatment for all the standard poodles we place.

Should you have any questions regarding our information disclosed on this page, please feel free to contact us via phone ____ ."


Or this one (the whole contract/guarantee):


"This contract is between ___, hereinafter referred to as SELLER and _
, hereinafter referred to as BUYER(s).

Address of Buyer:
Phone: E-Mail:
Seller agrees to sell Buyer a puppy born
AKC#
Sire: AKC#
Dam: AKC#
For the sum of:
Deposit Amount:
Total Amount Due:

1) The Buyer agrees to provide a life-long commitment, comfortable environment, prompt medical attention, proper grooming and responsible care. This includes keeping this puppy/dog parasite free and up to date with inoculations, proper nutrition, which consists of a good quality feed given at regular intervals, and fresh water available at all times. The Buyer promises to provide a safe environment for the dog, and never allow the dog to roam freely without proper fencing or supervision. The Seller strongly recommends that the puppy/dog be microchipped in order to facilitate his return if lost or stolen.

2) The Seller guarantees this puppy/dog to be of sound health and temperament at the time of this sale. A health record of all shots and wormings will be provided by the Seller. This dog is in good health and free from communicable diseases to the best of Breeders’ knowledge. If the dog becomes ill within 14 days of receipt by Buyer, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Seller. Breeders will reimburse Buyer for veterinary expenses related to the illness or Buyer may return the dog to Breeders for a full refund. Buyer shall notify Breeders, by telephone or electronic mail, within 48 hours of the diagnosis of the illness. Buyer shall take the dog to a licensed veterinarian of her choice within 72 hours of receipt of the dog for the 14 day health guarantee to be effective. Buyer is responsible for health, care, and feeding of the dog as of the date of receipt.

3) This dog is guaranteed free from serious inheritable diseases, including, but not limited to, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, patellar luxation, hip dysplasia, thyroid abnormalities, sebaceous adenitis, juvenile cataracts, diabetes, and Addison’s disease. If the dog develops any serious inheritable disease during their lifetime, Breeder shall either refund up to 100% of the purchase price or provide another dog to Buyer, The choice between a refund or a new dog shall be made by Buyer. Moreover, Buyer will not be required to return the dog to Breeder in order to receive the refund or the new dog. Breeder may request that Buyer obtain a second opinion with respect to any diagnosis of an inheritable disease. The medical cost of the second opinion shall be borne by Seller.

4) The Buyers agree not to use this animal for breeding and agree to have it spayed/neutered at the age recommended by their veterinarian. It is strongly suggested by the Seller that the puppy not be spayed/neutered until it has reached it’s full growth as to do otherwise may cause long term health concerns. The Buyer understands that the AKC registration papers do not accompany this puppy as part of the sale. A copy of said papers will be included at the time of the sale. However, after the above mentioned puppy has been neutered/spayed and the certification has been forwarded to the Seller, the Buyer will receive the AKC Registration papers at no additional cost. The Buyer agrees to register the dog using the kennel name as a prefix.

5) If at any time the Buyer can no longer retain possession of this dog, the Seller is to be notified and unless the Buyer is given written permission to place said dog, this dog must be returned to Seller by the Buyer. Refunds, if any, will be at the discretion of the Breeder/ Seller. The dog will be returned with all AKC papers and medical records. Should any circumstances arise that affect the quality of life of this dog, the breeder/seller is to be informed so that they may participate in determining the future of the dog.
The Breeder/ Seller reserves the right to approve/prohibit any transfer of this animal to a third party. Under no circumstances will this dog be sold, leased, traded or given away to any pet shop, research laboratory, animal shelter or similar facility.

6) The Buyer agrees to contact the Seller immediately if any questions or concerns arise about the dog, such as housing, diet, health or training. The buyer agrees to keep the seller informed of any treatment as it occurs. This provides the Breeder/Seller with an opportunity to follow up on puppies and gives us important feedback and information on the health or our dogs for future generations.



7) It is understood at the time of sale that this is a pet quality dog and it is representative of its breed. It is structurally and temperamentally suited as a companion and/or performance dog. Training classes are recommended for a happy relationship between the dog and family.

The preceding paragraphs contain conditions established to ensure the well being of the dog, but also to uphold and maintain the reputation of quality that ___ has established over many years. The Buyer’s agreements will continue for the dog’s life and the Seller will have the right to enforce the agreements.

Seller:
Signature:
Date:
Buyer:
Signature
Date:

but not this This is only the health portion, not including their payment and shipping requirements):

SELLER'S HEALTH GUARANTEE

All Poodles bred and sold are up-to-date in their medical treatments. Dogs are checked prior to shipping and are guaranteed to be sound and in good health.
PUPPIES whose age at a date of sale precludes completion of the scheduled series of inoculations, it is necessary for the purchaser to complete the scheduled series of inoculations ON TIME, in order to protect the puppy and for this health guarantee to remain valid.
A timetable for this series of inoculations will be supplied on the medical history of the puppy. In addition, until this series of inoculations has been complete (about 16 weeks of age) the puppy should not be exposed to premises known to be suspected of being contaminated or unhealthy animals.

___ certifies that at the time of sale and to the best of our knowledge, the puppy will be free of any congenital birth defects. Our puppies are guaranteed against parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale.
Buyer has researched and is knowledgeable of the non life threatening problems that a dog may have, and agrees that these are not covered under this health guarantee.
The buyer is advised to have this puppy examined by a competent veterinarian of the buyers' choice within 3 business days to assure them that they have purchased a healthy puppy. This will be done at the purchaser's expense. Under no circumstances will __ be responsible for any veterinarian bills acquired by the purchaser for this puppy.
Minor, breed related, treatable or correctable conditions (such as Patellar Luxation, Legg-Calvé-Perthes Disease, Cryptorchidism, PRA-Prcd, etc), or any condition that may go away or is considered to be a condition which a puppy will likely outgrow, are not covered.
We give a very educated guess on mature size of pup but we do not guarantee size.

We DO NOT GIVE REFUNDS.
We will give a replacement puppy for life threatening genetic diseases.
If a health issue arises within the first TWENTY FOUR MONTHS of age which your vet believes could possibly be a life threatening genetic disease the following are the options:

(1) A written explanation from a licensed veterinarian and backed up with lab work or x-rays as to the nature of the problem.

(2) A second opinion from a Vet whom we have approved in advance to examine the puppy for signs of abuse or for life threatening congenital defect.

(3) Return the puppy and AKC papers to us at buyer’s expense. If you are unwilling to release the puppy and their papers into our possession, we will not be responsible for any medical expenses incurred (only medical expenses guaranteed are for parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale) nor will we be a part of the recovery process.

(4) Proof that the puppy was examined by a certified veterinarian no later than 3 working days after receiving the puppy.

If the Vet's prognosis is that the puppy has a life threatening genetic disease and all of the above criteria are met, we will replace a puppy of equal value when one becomes available. No problems other than life threatening congenital defects are covered in this agreement.

We offer this guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age. If at any time you transfer ownership of the puppy, this agreement is void immediately.


We are not responsible for the health of this Puppy after the 72 hours period. This is due to the possibility that the dog may become infected by a communicable disease after its delivery to the new owner.

BUYER'S RESPONSIBILITY:
  • Have the puppy examined by a licensed veterinarian within 72 hours of delivery. If a problem does arise, the Breeder is to be notified immediately following the examination of the puppy. The problem must also be verified by the Breeder's own veterinarian.
  • Provide the puppy with routine preventive care, such as, but not limited to the following:
    • Annual physical examinations by a licensed veterinarian.
    • Follow veterinarian guidelines for vaccinations and de-worming.
  • All deposits are non-refundable.
The contract came, and looks ok to me, but I can't copy it, I could type out some bits to review, if this is not a privacy violation? I hesitate to upload the whole document (if I can) without asking the breeder's consent.
A couple of summary points mentioned:
-There are recommendations for vaccination types and spacing, a booster schedule and a prohibition against Fort Dodge vaccines, along with a recommendation against over vaccinating.
-Seems good.

-Proven genetic disorders are guaranteed for three years, including sever hip dysplasia, juvenile cataracts, sebaceous adenines, or Von Willabrand disease. If any of these genetic disorders cannot meet the criteria of a normal life as a companion pet, the buy may choose two options:
1.a 50% refund if the buyer chooses not to return or replace the dog, or may apply the funds toward vet bills, or another dog.
2.100% refund and the return of the dog, (minus vet exam and AKC transfer fees) or a replacement puppy.
-Do any of these diseases typically show up after 3 years?

-First right of refusal for any rehoming or inability of the owner to continue to care for the dog. Buyers are not allowed to transfer dogs to shelters, agents, research facilities etc. and new owners must be approved, and sign a new contract. Sever penalty for breeding, selling or transferring puppy (10K + 500 per pup)
-Seems good.

-Buyers are encouraged to not spay or neuter until over 1 year, and no earlier than 9 months for males.
-I have read that males fare better with neutering after 18-24 months... I can ask her about those timelines.

Thanks in advance, I hope this is not too fragmented to be useful.
 
1 - 20 of 41 Posts
Top