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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We have a toy poodle, Frodo, and absolutely love him. He’s such a fun cuddly little boy, who can run and fetch like the big dogs. We joke that he’s part cat because he doesn’t really pay attention to other dogs at the dog park. He seems to like calm doodles, but gets aggressive if they hover over him. He’s been bitten by a couple bigger dogs in the past and they scare him, I think.
We’ve recently moved to an environment that is perfect for a larger dog and with me working from home most of the time, it seemed like good timing to get a second dog. We’ve put a deposit on a golden doodle puppy, standard size. It didn’t really occur to us until after the deposit that it my not be safe for our little 6lb Frodo. We know that there will be the whole pack order stuff and have read a lot about introducing a second dog. We’re not worried about that. We are a little worried that having a full sized 75 lb dog (now a puppy) may not be physically safe for our little guy. Has anyone done this? Should we just walk away from the deposit?
 

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I would be very concerned if your dog has bitten by large dogs introducing large dog to the house hold, especially since a larger dog can easily kill a toy dog unintentionally, what can perceived as play really is not.
A small dog should feel safe in their own home. I have had 6 toy poodles, 1 mini poodle, I currently have 3 toy poodles, a chi mix and a large cat. the chi mix and the cat have severely bitten my toy poodles, these bites require vet visits. The 15 yr old chi mix was my mother's dog and the cat has medical issues. I have to keep every one separated from the poodles when I leave the house, this is my choice and a difficult one.
What would you do if things go south?
there are people on the forum that have successfully had toy and large dogs in the same house, but remember that your toy boy already has some bad history and may not get past that.
 

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What do you want in a dog?

chances are any variation of poodle will fit that ideal.

Goldendoodles are designer mutts, who are more often than not poorly bred
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Partly we want a hiking buddy who can protect the girls in our house and our little Frodo from the bears and cougars around here while we’re walking in the woods. Also want a friend for Frodo. If we were getting our only dog right now it would be a larger dog, but we got Frodo when we lived in a tiny condo so didn’t have space for a big dog at the time. Now he’s part of the family so we’re trying to figure out the best option. The reason for a doodle over a purebred is we love labs and goldens, but prefer the non-shedding poodle and love their personalities too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I would supervise very carefully. As written above, a tiny dog can be badly injured or even killed accidentally.
Do you think with proper supervision it can be fine or is the risk still high? We’re leaning towards walking away from the deposit at this point, but obviously would love it if we could just train the new guy to be gentle. Puppies are puppies though and sometimes they aren’t coordinated enough to control there movements.
 

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Partly we want a hiking buddy who can protect the girls in our house and our little Frodo from the bears and cougars around here while we’re walking in the woods. Also want a friend for Frodo. If we were getting our only dog right now it would be a larger dog, but we got Frodo when we lived in a tiny condo so didn’t have space for a big dog at the time. Now he’s part of the family so we’re trying to figure out the best option. The reason for a doodle over a purebred is we love labs and goldens, but prefer the non-shedding poodle and love their personalities too.
If you are looking for a dog to protect your girls and Frodo, a Golden Doodle is very unlikely to protect anything or anybody. They are notorious for being everyones best friend including people and dogs who are being aggressive towards their family. Your doodle is much more likely to make friends with an intruder than defend you.
 

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Do you think with proper supervision it can be fine or is the risk still high? We’re leaning towards walking away from the deposit at this point, but obviously would love it if we could just train the new guy to be gentle. Puppies are puppies though and sometimes they aren’t coordinated enough to control there movements.
The problem is that puppies are not naturally calm and gentle. This can be trained over years, but you can't expect a puppy to be calm from the start. I would expect that you will have to keep them mostly separated for a long time to ensure your toy's safety. If you let the puppy beat up on him they will never get along.

I would not pick a doodle for the reasons listed. Most doodles are from backyard breeders who breed dogs with unstable temperaments, poor structure, and little to no health testing. They are heavier boned than a standard poodle so will likely be even more dangerous to a toy dog. If you do want to get a larger dog and manage the relationship safely, I would recommend a standard poodle. Unlike goldens or labs, they have some natural protective instincts like you desire. And you can get a well bred, temperamentally sound dog with generations of health tested and titled parents for half the price of a doodle.
 

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I think your safety concerns are well founded. Puppies like to play. A puppy destined for 75 pounds will probably already outweigh your Frodo at 9 weeks. Being a puppy, it will want to play constantly, and Frodo will be the logical outlet for all this puppy energy. Therefore, for at least the next year, you will need to supervise every single interaction. You will need to be the fun police, the bad guy who tells the puppy to stop playing with Frodo. Lather, rinse, repeat, multiple times a day.

An additional concern is that doodles sometimes do not come from the best retriever stock. I've met a few lovely golden doodles. I've also met some that were insane energy balls well into their third year, when a well bred Golden would have settled down.

As for having a large dog to protect Frodo, I think the most likely threat to him is a raptor such as a red-tail hawk or an eagle. (Anyone remember the dismay a few years ago when a bald eagle cam in the Washington DC area live streamed mama eagle feeding a housecat to the eaglets?) A doggie companion of any size is unlikely to protect him from a raptor swooping in from above. If you want a larger dog to protect YOU, that's a different story, but just make sure you are clear about your goal. I know someone, a park ranger, who got a Airedale to protect his kids against bears and cougars. He wanted a non-shedding dog that was large enough and also insane enough to slow down a cougar long enough for the kids to run to safety. Hence a curly coated big terrier.
 

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One large dog will do nothing to protect your children or your tpoo. In fact since coyotes often lure dogs to play and then have the pack massacre the dog I just would not set the stage for coyote or bear encounters where I was relying on a dog I cared about being asked to protect. Your tpoo should be able to hike with you especially if you are prepared to pick him up if the hike goes long.
 

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Peggy Sue, Standard Poodle Born May 2019
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I'll share a personal story:

I had a very small dog named Gracie (half miniature poodle but with very short legs, about 12 lbs) and in her senior years, we offered to dogsit our neighbour's adult goldendoodle. He was, as is typical for these mixes, a big boy. About 75 lbs. He was extremely gentle around Gracie. He never pestered her and was well trained in obedience. He spent much of his life visiting elderly folks in rehabilitation centres, working alongside his human.

The first 2/3 of his visit went great. But one day "his blanket" (which he liked to carry around) was left on the threshold to the master bedroom. I was in there doing something. The goldendoodle was with me. And Gracie stepped into the room. The moment her paw touched that blanket, the goldendoodle was on top of her. It all happened so fast. Too fast for anyone to have prevented, but I still feel sick with guilt.

I was able to pull him off her—he wasn't using his teeth or anything (well trained, like I said)—but I'm not exaggerating when I say he could have easily broken her back that day. I actually can't believe he didn't. And I've heard multiple horror stories of similar situations occurring just in play.

Gracie's health declined rapidly after that, and I just wish I could go back in time and spare her that experience. She didn't deserve to be hurt like that in her own home.
 

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I would not put a 75 lbs dog in the same home as a toy poodle. Even if they are friends, the risks of the 75 lbs dog inadvertently crushing or hurting the toy are too high. I had a 4 lbs chihuahua with a 25 lbs Boston terrier and when the BT was no longer in our home, I realized my little chi’s personality had been greatly changed by the other dog’s presence. When the BT was gone, she started acting like a puppy again : running everywhere, doing the zoomies, etc. All things she knew she couldn’t do because the BT would have wanted to run/play with her and she was afraid of being hurt.

Second, I would not get a doodle. Ever. They have temperament problems (very hyper, not able to settle, ect). Yes, some of them are fine, but a lot of them are not. When the guy who started/created the mix says it’s the biggest mistake of his life, it says it all...
 

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I'd be afraid of it too. I sometimes worry about my 35 pound mutt with my puppy, and she is the most laid back and slow moving old senior girl there is. I don't think she would intentionally hurt the puppy but even just like... sitting on her, wrestling her gently and making her fall off a couch, anything could hurt her. Sometimes puppy DOES need to be put in her place and even a non-vicious reprimand could be serious to her.

When we adopted (then) 7 pound Benjamin Franklin,I wasn't as concerned. BF was a senior when we adopted him, so he was already slow. He didn't want to play. Neither of my dogs wanted to play. They both knew and understood doggy language and manners. BF respected that Mya was in charge and didn't for one second care to challenge her on it. So I wasn't concerned at all.

The puppy dynamic is just SO totally different, because puppies just have no clue how to behave yet. I know there must be people who do it somehow. I've seen people with great danes and yorkies living together. But how do they manage the danger? I have no clue.
 

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Peggy Sue, Standard Poodle Born May 2019
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I've seen people with great danes and yorkies living together. But how do they manage the danger? I have no clue.
I think, in many cases, it's fine until it's not. I've heard people say, "Well, I've never had any problems with my two dogs."

Okay. That's good. But it's a little like believing you'll never have a car accident because you haven't had one yet. You still need to weigh the risks and take appropriate precautions.
 

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I have a 5 pound toy poodle, and one of his toy poodle litter mates had her leg broken by her standard poodle brother. It was a total accident, but it happened. If you do end up with a big dog with your little toy poodle, I wouldn't ever let them run around outside together. It could be very dangerous for your toy, as all it takes is for the bigger dog to step on your toy poodle and he could be seriously injured. That also goes for the dog park!!! A toy poodle should not be playing in a dog park with other, much larger dogs. That is a huge accident waiting to happen. Toy poodles are the sweetest little animals, but they are definitely
on the fragile side.
 

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I own a 55 lb standard and live with a 15 lb or so Yorkie. Its quite difficult at times, and I wouldn't have chosen a spoo if I knew I was going to be living with my mom and her dog. It's been a ton of management. Mom owned a 6 lb dog for a while before I had my spoo, she was infinitely more fragile than the Yorkie. I always worry when they play and monitor closely and my spoo has to be SO careful.

If determined to have a big dog, I would probably go with a spoo over a doodle. The size is a bit more predictable, and in my opinion, my spoo is more careful of her feet than the doodles I know, definitely more careful than the goldens I know. Two unrelated doodles I know have in the last 2 years, broken bones on humans by knocking into them (a hip and an arm).

Would maybe an oversized mini poodle work for you? Probably 2-3x the size of your toy,

Another option might be an adult poodle/doodle. Less risk, no puppy crazies, etc.
 

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The reason for a doodle over a purebred is we love labs and goldens, but prefer the non-shedding poodle and love their personalities too.
In addition to the safety concerns, I don't know how much research you've done on the Goldendoodle crosses but there is no guarantee that the poodle non-shed attributes are a given. When I was researching a different topic, I ran across this site which I found really interesting.

Excerpt from Best Goldendoodle Generations: F1, F1B, F1BB, F2, F2B, F3 We Love Doodles :

Goldendoodle Generations Reference Guide

Understanding the terminology is important, and quite simple once you understand what the letters and numbers mean. I will breakdown the meaning of F1B Goldendoodle as an example:

  • F1B Goldendoodle: The F stands for Filial Hybrid. This simply means that it is a hybrid dog that came from two purebred dogs.
  • F1B Goldendoodle: The 1 stands for the generation the dog is. In this specific case, the 1 means 1st generation.
  • F1B Goldendoodle: The B stands for Backcross. Backcross is a fancy term that simply means inbreeding back to a purebred generation. Typically for Goldendoodles, this means inbreeding back to a 100% Standard Poodle for hypoallergenic and non-shedding purposes.

For reference, here are the Goldendoodle generations that I will discuss. This is merely a reference guide and I go into more detail for the different types of Goldendoodle generations.

  • F1 Goldendoodle: 50% Poodle & 50% Golden Retriever
  • F1B Goldendoodle: 75% Poodle & 25% Golden Retriever
  • F1BB Goldendoodle: 87.5% Poodle & 12.5% Golden Retriever
  • F2 Goldendoodle: 50% Poodle & 50% Golden Retriever
  • F2B Goldendoodle: 62.5% Poodle & 37.5% Golden Retriever
  • F2BB Goldendoodle: 81.25% Poodle & 18.75% Golden Retriever
  • F3 Goldendoodle or Multi-generation Goldendoodle: Several generations of Goldendoodle breeding typically backcross breeding to the Standard Poodle.

Tip: People generally prefer Goldendoodles that have more Poodle genetics.


Typically, Goldendoodles are backcross bred to the Standard Poodle for the hypoallergenic and nonshedding genes.

from the same site:


Goldendoodle Generations that Won’t Shed

There are several Goldendoodle generations that are less likely to shed than others. For instance, an F1B Goldendoodles (25% Golden Retriever, 75% Poodle) is less prone to shedding. This generation of Goldendoodle is virtual immune to shedding since they have a significant amount of nonshedding Poodle genetics. In additon, the F1BB Goldendoodle (87.5% Poodle & 12.5% Golden Retriever), F2B Goldendoodle (62.5% Poodle & 37.5% Golden Retriever) and F2BB Goldendoodle (81.25% Poodle & 18.75% Golden Retriever) are virtually immune to shedding.


However, at the end of the day, it comes down to luck whether or not your Goldendoodle will shed. For instance, if you have an F1 Goldendoodle (50% Poodle, 50% Golden Retriever) you may get lucky and have a nonshedding dog. Since this Goldendoodle is a 50/50 mix it’s like flipping a coin for whether or not they shed. In addition, some Goldendoodle owners experience little shedding for the first year, and then start finding clumps of hair around the house as their Goldendoodle grows older.

Most Hypoallergenic Goldendoodle Generations

As we know, the most hypoallergenic Goldedoodle’s will have a significant amount of Poodle genetics. We’ve written a more in-depth article on all the Goldendoodle Generations. As a summary, I’ve outlined the more hypoallergenic Goldendoodle generations below:

  • F1B Goldendoodle: 75% Poodle and 25% Golden Retriever
  • F1BB Goldendoodle: 87.5% Poodle and 12.5% Golden Retriever
  • F2B Goldendoodle: 62.5% Poodle and 37.5% Golden Retriever
  • F2BB Goldendoodle: 81.25% Poodle and 18.75% Golden Retriever
  • F3 Goldendoodle or Multi-generation Goldendoodle: Typically contain hypoallergenic Goldendoodles since they are backcrossed to the Poodle.

In general, you want to look for a Goldendoodle that has has been backcrossed to the Poodle, hence the letter “B” at the end of the generation. Typical characteristics of a hypoallergenic Goldendoodle include wavy to curly hair and nonshedding.


I would avoid an “F1 Goldendoodle” or F2 Goldendoodle” since these dogs will be 50% Golden Retriever and 50% Poodle. Most of these generations of Goldendoodles will shed more hair which will cause them to be less hypoallergenic. Remember, you want a Goldendoodle that will be nonshedding and have a curly coat if you have pet allergies.



Another thing to consider is that any cross between two purebreds is subject to the health issues of both breeds. I'd recommend looking for a breeder that health tests the sires and dams and lists results on the OFA site or on their own site. Several genetic testing labs will have more extensive panels available.

There's a list of some of the recommended tests here:
Health Tests for Goldendoodle & Labradoodle Breeding Dogs
 
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Partly we want a hiking buddy who can protect the girls in our house and our little Frodo from the bears and cougars around here while we’re walking in the woods. Also want a friend for Frodo. If we were getting our only dog right now it would be a larger dog, but we got Frodo when we lived in a tiny condo so didn’t have space for a big dog at the time. Now he’s part of the family so we’re trying to figure out the best option. The reason for a doodle over a purebred is we love labs and goldens, but prefer the non-shedding poodle and love their personalities too.
My neighbor has a F1 standard doodle, he does shed. Her daughter has a f1b standard doodle and he sheds very lightly. Both are very highly energetic dogs, more so than my poodle. The one also has two small breeds a papillon and a chihuahua. She must keep them in separate parts of the house. Her doodle is very dog friendly but he is 80 lor 90 lbs and can hurt the smaller dog just by giving him a nudge with his snout. The doodle is more heaviely boned than a standard poodle and significantly larger.
 

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There are also dogs advertised as mini golden doodles which I'd assume incorporate mini poodles instead of standards. Small and medium sized doodles are increasingly popular here. This could be a possibility if you are set on a doodle. I'm not sure how big they normally end up but from meeting some my guess would be ≤ 25 lbs.
 
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