[KalaMama]

Hi. I have been researching health testing. I am trying to get a handle on the tests that need to be performed for Standards and the timeline. For right now, my girl is only a pup and we won't enter the show ring until next year, but I enjoy learning and researching anyway. What tests are absolutely necessary and when are they to be performed?

I know OFA should be done after the 2 yr mark. CHECK That leads me to another question. What about PennHip? Is it becoming obsolete because OFA is more comprehensive? Okay, back to the topic at hand.

Cerf is to be done once a year. CHECK

PRA test can be done with a cheek swab at anytime. CHECK

Thyroid-when should the first thyroid screen be done and how often?

SA-I don't really understand the reason for testing for this is it is only an indicator for the moment it is tested and only for that particular spot?? Correct me please if I am wrong..

What am I missing?

 

[KalaMama]

Ok. That all makes sense. About the prelims, I read on the OFA site that the majority of readings done on a young dog are the same when done as an adult. To me a prelim would at least give you a basis to go off of. If one fails, then that would save the breeder from spending time and money trying to finish a dog that is not healthy enough to breed.

Ok, about the color testing. I have not gotten into reading about this at all, but am interested. My bitch is black and both of her parents are very black. Her lineage has maybe one American dog(way back) in it(mostly Australian, Swedish). I really don't have much of a history for her beyond names on a pedigree. How does the color testing work? I know she has more red/apricot colors in her lineage than actual blacks. I would want to breed to get the most vibrant color possible(whatever color that may be). Can you ever go wrong breeding to a black?

Thanks for the feedback by the way. It is nice to have somewhere to go when I come to a deadend on internet research or just tire of going to countless websites

 

[KalaMama]

I think color testing just gives you more information and helps you make a more informed decision. If your girl carries Cream and you breed to a Black stud who also carries cream, you theoretically can expect that 25% of your litter will be cream. With apricot and red behind, you might even get those colors.

If you already have very good blacks, I would concentrate on going forward with that color. Are you going to use a local stud or are you going to ship over semen?

Most likely, I would have to use an outside stud/semen. There are very few good breeders here that health test their dogs. Honestly, my pup's parents were not health tested nor show dogs. However, this litter was the first I have seen since moving to Oahu and I wanted a Standard so badly. We can not import from the mainland without a long quarantine period or without someone keeping the pup till they are around 8-9 months of age to get the titer test done. So I didn't really follow the rules of getting a health tested pup, but I wasn't as smart about a few months ago as I am now. Therefore, I am really starting from scratch with her as far as a health history and everything. She was picked by an avid Poodle showman to be the potential show pup of the litter, but I really know how much potential she has. The show scene is so small here anyway. I want to learn with her and see what we can do. I would certainly never consider breeding her until all her health test were clear and after 2 years of age even if she did finish her championship. I also understand the importance of having a history of health tested parents/grandparents, but it has to start somewhere I guess.

Thank you for your input. Very helpful.

 

[KalaMama]

You've started a good thread!
And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...
I agree, color wise, to stay with black, if you have something wonderful. Are the parents staying an inky black? (no grizzling other than a few hairs here and there?)

I suggest doing a hip prelim, for the reasons you gave. Before putting too much time and money into showing. I have a male ready to go out and I will be doing his prelim, CERF and full blood work/thyroid now (he is 1 1/2 years old) Once those are completed and results are good... you continue with the rest. (NE, DM and yes the darn SA, at least once before breeding.) Do you know if puppy is clear of VWD?

I would also take advantate of discounted clinics checking on heart function. It's so expensive ($600 to $700) so if that is nearby, you are fortunate.
(I was told not to test for this until 2 years old. Not sure if anyone has a different thought on it.)

I am at a big disadvantage as far as testing goes. I don't think there will be any clinics here. I will certainly look out for them but the show scene is small. I would love to share her pedigree and find out any good or possibly bad things about it. Knowledge is power I have it all written out right now, but I will try to put it on some type of pedigree generator and attach it here.

Her parents' coloring is very black but she(like her father) has the smallest bit of brown(maybe 3 inches wide) right behind the bottom of her front 2 feet. It is very small and you have to be looking very closely to see. I think it is actually called apricot though.

Health testing- since I am completely starting from scratch with her I think prelims would be helpful also. I have nothing right now. I guess I could start with the VWD, then thryoid panel and cerf.

Thanks!

 

[KalaMama]

Can you take a picture of this? Is she a Phantom?

I sure hope not. She couldn't show in conformation then I assume? I will try to get a photo today.

Having no health testing on the parents is going to set you back. So often health issues skip a generation. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go forward, but in some ways you will be flying blind because you don't know what is behind your girl.

Yes, it is possible that the grandparents were health tested but I do not know that or the results so that doesn't help me at all. Oh well I have plenty of time between now and then and lots of hoops to jump through before it would even be relevant I guess. It is fun understanding it all though.

 

[KalaMama]

You've started a good thread!
And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...

I dont think it is anything impressive but here it is
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=377676

I don't think it tells the colors of the dogs but I have most of the colors.
Sire: Black w/apricot (the slightest bit behind his front feet
Dam: Black
(there may be a little bit of white hairs scattered through on some of the offspring but only if you look closely)
Out of my bitch's litter there were 8 pups(2 cream and 6 black(my girl and one other has the bit of apricot behind the front foot)

 

[KalaMama]

Can you take a picture of this? Is she a Phantom?



I finally got a chance to take a pic of her brown. It is not noticeable unless you are eye level with her feet(on a grooming table) or pick her foot up and pull the hair up to see the brown around her front two feet. Pictured below and the other pic is the black coat that is everywhere else.[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

 

[KalaMama]

I found this website that has lots of genetic tests for dogs(and other animals). Has anyone had experience with them? Are there any tests here that would be beneficial to test on a Spoo? I know the dm, ne, vwd but there are many more listed.

 

[KalaMama]

Hummm... I'm guessing that this is some sort of mismark, though I've never seen one like it. I wonder if it would be part of the Phantom spectrum.

Anyway.... any non-solid color is a disqualifying fault in AKC. If a judge sees it you run the risk of being excused. I would also not want to breed this forward since you may get mismarked puppies.

I was told it looked like it was from having the dewclaws removed(they cut a nerve or something). Have you ever heard of this? So, since she has this she can not be shown in AKC conformation? Bummer.

 

[KalaMama]

Didn't you mention that her parents had similar markings? If so, then I would think that it is genetic coloring.

Yes, I have never seen the father but he did have this also.
Usually when damage has been done to a part of the body on a Black dog, the skin loses its pigment. It is not uncommon to see a white spot on the ear of a Poodle who has had its ears banded too close to the ear leather. In lighter colored poodles, the color seems to come in darker. I've seen light Silvers with dark splotches where they have gotten cut.

Can you show her? Yes. Do you run the risk of being excused if a judge sees it? Yes.

Yes, but if it is against the rules then I wouldn't want to do it anyway. No judge would ever see it because it is so hidden that you actually have to pull her hair up to see it and it could easily be cut out without even noticing, but that seems unethical to me. This would have been my first show dog so I am not real familiar with the show scene but I am assuming if it is a disqualifying factor then trying to hide it would be cheating??

I think the bigger question is: Do you want to go forward and breed this? I can't answer that for you. Personally I would not breed a mismarked Poodle. I think it is hard enough to get a good show/breeding quality puppy without factoring in mismarks. If you are not planning on breeding this bitch, why spend the time and money finishing her?

Yes, I see your point. Just a thought, if I color tested her it might be able to pinpoint what type of gene is causing this coloring. Not that it matters now.

Thanks for the input I am so sad