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Discussion Starter #1
Hi. I have been researching health testing. I am trying to get a handle on the tests that need to be performed for Standards and the timeline. For right now, my girl is only a pup and we won't enter the show ring until next year, but I enjoy learning and researching anyway. What tests are absolutely necessary and when are they to be performed?

I know OFA should be done after the 2 yr mark. CHECK That leads me to another question. What about PennHip? Is it becoming obsolete because OFA is more comprehensive? Okay, back to the topic at hand.

Cerf is to be done once a year. CHECK

PRA test can be done with a cheek swab at anytime. CHECK

Thyroid-when should the first thyroid screen be done and how often?

SA-I don't really understand the reason for testing for this is it is only an indicator for the moment it is tested and only for that particular spot?? Correct me please if I am wrong..

What am I missing?
 

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Many breeders do Pennhip because they can do it very early and then breed early. I think Pennhip is a fine form of hip evaluation BUT it has to be done later (I like after age 2) because hips change as the dog grows. I think it does no good to hang your hat on a hip evaluation in a 5 month old puppy.

CERF uses a physical exam to check the eyes for PRA. Optigen tests only for a genetic type of blindness known as prcd-PRA. prcd-PRA is found in Minis and Toys, but not in Standards. Minis/Toys should have both Optigen testing and CERF testing. Standards just need CERF testing.

Thyroid is usually run every year.

The SA test is valuable because it still catches a large number of sub-clinical SA cases. This is when a dog has SA at the cellular level but it has not been physically expressed yet. I would want to see that a Standard poodle under age 5 had been tested clear. Usually by age 5-6 the dog will start showing signs of SA (but not always... I know a couple of dogs who didn't present until after age 8)

Don't forget NE and VWB if you are breeding standards and Patellas and Legg-Calve for Mini/Toys
 

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Many breeders do Pennhip because they can do it very early and then breed early. I think Pennhip is a fine form of hip evaluation BUT it has to be done later (I like after age 2) because hips change as the dog grows. I think it does no good to hang your hat on a hip evaluation in a 5 month old puppy.

CERF uses a physical exam to check the eyes for PRA. Optigen tests only for a genetic type of blindness known as prcd-PRA. prcd-PRA is found in Minis and Toys, but not in Standards. Minis/Toys should have both Optigen testing and CERF testing. Standards just need CERF testing.

Thyroid is usually run every year.

The SA test is valuable because it still catches a large number of sub-clinical SA cases. This is when a dog has SA at the cellular level but it has not been physically expressed yet. I would want to see that a Standard poodle under age 5 had been tested clear. Usually by age 5-6 the dog will start showing signs of SA (but not always... I know a couple of dogs who didn't present until after age 8)

Don't forget NE and VWB if you are breeding standards and Patellas and Legg-Calve for Mini/Toys
Cerf is done once a year on breeding dogs and vWB NE and color tests can be done on puppies but should be done before breeding.. I like to do a prelim on the dogs that I plan to use or show, as at ten months you have a pretty good idea what is what. But his a habit that I formed 20 years ago...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ok. That all makes sense. About the prelims, I read on the OFA site that the majority of readings done on a young dog are the same when done as an adult. To me a prelim would at least give you a basis to go off of. If one fails, then that would save the breeder from spending time and money trying to finish a dog that is not healthy enough to breed.

Ok, about the color testing. I have not gotten into reading about this at all, but am interested. My bitch is black and both of her parents are very black. Her lineage has maybe one American dog(way back) in it(mostly Australian, Swedish). I really don't have much of a history for her beyond names on a pedigree. How does the color testing work? I know she has more red/apricot colors in her lineage than actual blacks. I would want to breed to get the most vibrant color possible(whatever color that may be). Can you ever go wrong breeding to a black?

Thanks for the feedback by the way. It is nice to have somewhere to go when I come to a deadend on internet research or just tire of going to countless websites:)
 

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I used the DDC for color testing on the reds . It would be interesting for you to do a color test.. The blacks can carry a multitude of colors back behind them . I think that is fabulous that you have apricot and red behind yours ....That is rarehttp://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-coat-color.html
 

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And here I was told that not many mini breeders did patellas. It was more important for toy breeders to do patellas.
 

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Ok. That all makes sense. About the prelims, I read on the OFA site that the majority of readings done on a young dog are the same when done as an adult. To me a prelim would at least give you a basis to go off of. If one fails, then that would save the breeder from spending time and money trying to finish a dog that is not healthy enough to breed.

Ok, about the color testing. I have not gotten into reading about this at all, but am interested. My bitch is black and both of her parents are very black. Her lineage has maybe one American dog(way back) in it(mostly Australian, Swedish). I really don't have much of a history for her beyond names on a pedigree. How does the color testing work? I know she has more red/apricot colors in her lineage than actual blacks. I would want to breed to get the most vibrant color possible(whatever color that may be). Can you ever go wrong breeding to a black?
I think color testing just gives you more information and helps you make a more informed decision. If your girl carries Cream and you breed to a Black stud who also carries cream, you theoretically can expect that 25% of your litter will be cream. With apricot and red behind, you might even get those colors.

If you already have very good blacks, I would concentrate on going forward with that color. Are you going to use a local stud or are you going to ship over semen?
 

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You've started a good thread!
And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...
I agree, color wise, to stay with black, if you have something wonderful. Are the parents staying an inky black? (no grizzling other than a few hairs here and there?)

I suggest doing a hip prelim, for the reasons you gave. Before putting too much time and money into showing. I have a male ready to go out and I will be doing his prelim, CERF and full blood work/thyroid now (he is 1 1/2 years old) Once those are completed and results are good... you continue with the rest. (NE, DM and yes the darn SA, at least once before breeding.) Do you know if puppy is clear of VWD?

I would also take advantate of discounted clinics checking on heart function. It's so expensive ($600 to $700) so if that is nearby, you are fortunate.
(I was told not to test for this until 2 years old. Not sure if anyone has a different thought on it.)
 

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This is indeed a great thread, even for those like me who do not intend to breed!!

It is good to know what testing goes into a breeding so you know (as much as you can) to insure a healthy pup!

I know in Maltese liver shunt is a problem. Is it in poodles and what are the tests for that?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think color testing just gives you more information and helps you make a more informed decision. If your girl carries Cream and you breed to a Black stud who also carries cream, you theoretically can expect that 25% of your litter will be cream. With apricot and red behind, you might even get those colors.

If you already have very good blacks, I would concentrate on going forward with that color. Are you going to use a local stud or are you going to ship over semen?
Most likely, I would have to use an outside stud/semen. There are very few good breeders here that health test their dogs. Honestly, my pup's parents were not health tested nor show dogs. However, this litter was the first I have seen since moving to Oahu and I wanted a Standard so badly. We can not import from the mainland without a long quarantine period or without someone keeping the pup till they are around 8-9 months of age to get the titer test done. So I didn't really follow the rules of getting a health tested pup, but I wasn't as smart about a few months ago as I am now. Therefore, I am really starting from scratch with her as far as a health history and everything. She was picked by an avid Poodle showman to be the potential show pup of the litter, but I really know how much potential she has. The show scene is so small here anyway. I want to learn with her and see what we can do. I would certainly never consider breeding her until all her health test were clear and after 2 years of age even if she did finish her championship. I also understand the importance of having a history of health tested parents/grandparents, but it has to start somewhere I guess.

Thank you for your input. Very helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You've started a good thread!
And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...
I agree, color wise, to stay with black, if you have something wonderful. Are the parents staying an inky black? (no grizzling other than a few hairs here and there?)

I suggest doing a hip prelim, for the reasons you gave. Before putting too much time and money into showing. I have a male ready to go out and I will be doing his prelim, CERF and full blood work/thyroid now (he is 1 1/2 years old) Once those are completed and results are good... you continue with the rest. (NE, DM and yes the darn SA, at least once before breeding.) Do you know if puppy is clear of VWD?

I would also take advantate of discounted clinics checking on heart function. It's so expensive ($600 to $700) so if that is nearby, you are fortunate.
(I was told not to test for this until 2 years old. Not sure if anyone has a different thought on it.)
I am at a big disadvantage as far as testing goes. I don't think there will be any clinics here. I will certainly look out for them but the show scene is small. I would love to share her pedigree and find out any good or possibly bad things about it. Knowledge is power:) I have it all written out right now, but I will try to put it on some type of pedigree generator and attach it here.

Her parents' coloring is very black but she(like her father) has the smallest bit of brown(maybe 3 inches wide) right behind the bottom of her front 2 feet. It is very small and you have to be looking very closely to see. I think it is actually called apricot though.

Health testing- since I am completely starting from scratch with her I think prelims would be helpful also. I have nothing right now. I guess I could start with the VWD, then thryoid panel and cerf.

Thanks!
 

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Her parents' coloring is very black but she(like her father) has the smallest bit of brown(maybe 3 inches wide) right behind the bottom of her front 2 feet. It is very small and you have to be looking very closely to see. I think it is actually called apricot though.
Can you take a picture of this? Is she a Phantom?

Health testing- since I am completely starting from scratch with her I think prelims would be helpful also. I have nothing right now. I guess I could start with the VWD, then thryoid panel and cerf.
Having no health testing on the parents is going to set you back. So often health issues skip a generation. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go forward, but in some ways you will be flying blind because you don't know what is behind your girl.
 

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Can you take a picture of this? Is she a Phantom?

I sure hope not. She couldn't show in conformation then I assume? I will try to get a photo today.

Having no health testing on the parents is going to set you back. So often health issues skip a generation. I'm not saying that you shouldn't go forward, but in some ways you will be flying blind because you don't know what is behind your girl.
Yes, it is possible that the grandparents were health tested but I do not know that or the results so that doesn't help me at all. Oh well I have plenty of time between now and then and lots of hoops to jump through before it would even be relevant I guess. It is fun understanding it all though.
 

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You've started a good thread!
And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...

I dont think it is anything impressive but here it is
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=377676

I don't think it tells the colors of the dogs but I have most of the colors.
Sire: Black w/apricot (the slightest bit behind his front feet
Dam: Black
(there may be a little bit of white hairs scattered through on some of the offspring but only if you look closely)
Out of my bitch's litter there were 8 pups(2 cream and 6 black(my girl and one other has the bit of apricot behind the front foot)
 

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You've started a good thread!
And it would be fun to see the pedigree you are talking about. Sounds interesting...

I dont think it is anything impressive but here it is
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=377676

I don't think it tells the colors of the dogs but I have most of the colors.
Sire: Black w/apricot (the slightest bit behind his front feet
Dam: Black
(there may be a little bit of white hairs scattered through on some of the offspring but only if you look closely)
Out of my bitch's litter there were 8 pups(2 cream and 6 black(my girl and one other has the bit of apricot behind the front foot)

I will show you colors if you click on 5 gen pedigree then click color ped

here it is

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/fivegen.asp?ID=377676&type=color


some are missing but you can fill them in :D
 

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Can somebody please explain to me Neonatal Encephalopathy more closely :rolffleyes:

Is that common condition in Standards and if a puppy is deemed a "carrier" - than it means that at least one of the parents is a "carrier" too - right ?

So, is it a common practice to still use the same breeding pair even though they produce "carriers" in their litters ??? Is it OK to show a known "carrier" ???
 

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Can somebody please explain to me Neonatal Encephalopathy more closely :rolffleyes:

Is that common condition in Standards
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Yes, in many white and silver lines, at least.
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and if a puppy is deemed a "carrier" - than it means that at least one of the parents is a "carrier" too - right ?
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Yes
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So, is it a common practice to still use the same breeding pair even though they produce "carriers" in their litters ???
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Personally, it does nothing for me to breed the same pair as my goal is more diversity but as long as everything else tested is good, there is no reason they shouldn't be bred again. I would make sure that one of them is a clear... but they probably already know that.
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Is it OK to show a known "carrier" ???
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You would be surprised how many Ch'd dogs are carriers.
Thank goodness we have another DNA test... you can still safely use a carrier but only to a clear.
 
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