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I have loose grasp of what makes a good breeder a good breeder, health testing, contract with spay/neuture and health guarentee included, but am curious about one point. If a breeder health tests all their dogs, waits till they are 2 plus to breed, and does everything else right but DOESN'T show are they still considered a byb? Where does the distinction lie? Does the # of dogs change status as well as not showing? What if all those dogs are top of the line? I'm just curious how a person can know the difference between a good breeder and a byb. I hope I can tell the difference by now between a mill and a good breeder (lord I hope so) but the line seems a lot more fuzzy between some bybs and truly good breeders. Does anyone have a check list for potential puppy buyers to help us know what we should be looking for as well as avoiding?
 

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To me someone who breeds dogs without showing in some sort of event, owns multiple breeding dogs, "fosters" breeding stock and has multiple litters a year falls under the Backyard Breeder category.

If someone is truly interested in bettering in the breed they are doing some sort of showing and/or have offspring they have produced showing.
 

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I'm of a similar opinion to Purple Poodle. However, in my opinion, for a breeder to be deemed a backyard breeder, they would NOT do any/much health testing. If they do all necessary health tests (not just hips and eyes), it becomes a matter of an okay breeder vs. excellent breeder.

If not conformation titles, I look for obedience titles, agility titles, field titles etc. If the breeder simply keeps dogs and does nothing to PROVE their poodles are more than just pets, I turn the other way. If the breeder does nothing with their poodles, I see their breedings simply as a way to make money. There are TOO MANY homeless dogs and puppies out there for people to be breeding unproven (in any way) dogs. If you cannot take the time to invest in training for agility, obedience, or field, then you should not have the time to invest in breeding.
 

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My opinion of a BYB is someone who has a lot of breeding going on, and mostly those breedings consist of two dogs thrown together specifically to make puppies. No consideration whatsoever to the health of the resulting pups, conformation is not a consideration, and most times even colour is not a driving factor. Just produce lots of puppies ro sell and make gobs of money. As a rule, there is no health testing of the dogs being bred, most of their backgrounds have no health testing (because most BYB`s buy from other BYB`s, because no self respecting, decent breeder would sell to someone like a BYB).

In my opinion...there are some breeders who are doing a great job of researching pedigrees, breeding healthy puppies, working to improve the quality of puppies they produce, producing pups with lovely conformation and terrifc temperaments, and they do not show their own dogs. It is more important to me, when looking for a dog to purchase or breed to, that the breeders I am talking to have done their health testing, that I can go on to the Poodle Health Registry and see health testing in their pedigree, that if colour breeding, when looking at the pedigrees, it is obvious they have a clue what they are doing and not just breeding this dog to that dog to produce the best colour, but are also making sure that everything else is working together to produce a pup of great colour who also has great conformation AND good health. I do not feel it is necessary to buy from a show breeder to get the whole package. And that isnt only because I do not show at this time. I have been surrounded by Standard Poodles for 47 years, and HAVE been very much a part of the show world in the past. I am not the only breeder out there like this. When you spend a long time in the breed, loving the breed, being mentored by someone,( in my case my Mother), you KNOW what a good Poodle looks like and you learn how to breed for the right results.
 

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I'm of a similar opinion to Purple Poodle. However, in my opinion, for a breeder to be deemed a backyard breeder, they would NOT do any/much health testing. If they do all necessary health tests (not just hips and eyes), it becomes a matter of an okay breeder vs. excellent breeder.
I totally agree with this. IMO, to be a true BYB, you just throw a couple of dogs together with no health testing. BYB pups tend to be the ones you see listed on sites like Kijiji (if they're not mill puppies being sold by a broker).
 

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I think it comes down to your personal values. I think showing in some venue is important. If a breeder doesn't show then how do they know their dogs meet the standard? After breeding a few generations w/o showing a breeder is likely to become kennel blind. I also like smaller scale breeders. Those, in addition to health testing and temperment are important to me. I would be reluctant to buy from a small scale breeder who didn't show or large scale breeder who did show.
 

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For me health testing, raising the puppies in the home, and not having HUGE amounts of a dogs are what I look for. (Meaning, they stay with the breeder inside as well so the breeder knows her adults). Showing is nice but not a deal breaker. I am not a show person - I'm a pet person. So it is more important for me to have a breeder that knows her dogs personalities (and again - does all the health testing with a good health guarantee behind the puppy). I'm very happy with Wrigley's breeder and would recommend her to anyone.
 

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For me health testing, raising the puppies in the home, and not having HUGE amounts of a dogs are what I look for. (Meaning, they stay with the breeder inside as well so the breeder knows her adults). Showing is nice but not a deal breaker. I am not a show person - I'm a pet person. So it is more important for me to have a breeder that knows her dogs personalities (and again - does all the health testing with a good health guarantee behind the puppy). I'm very happy with Wrigley's breeder and would recommend her to anyone.
I agree with this!!!! Health testing is a real biggie for me . If they cannot afford to test and feed a good nutritious diet , then I say pass. Ask what they feed :)
As I have stated many times before just because they are a champion does not mean that they are breedable or even worthy of being bred ....
Temperment comes in to play as well. Ungroomed dogs on the site or REALLY old pictures.... Multiple colors and other breeds being bred are big flags and huge turn offs as well....To me that signafies a BYB ....
 

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I agree with this!!!! Health testing is a real biggie for me . If they cannot afford to test and feed a good nutritious diet , then I say pass. Ask what they feed :)
As I have stated many times before just because they are a champion does not mean that they are breedable or even worthy of being bred ....
Temperment comes in to play as well. Ungroomed dogs on the site or REALLY old pictures.... Multiple colors and other breeds being bred are big flags and huge turn offs as well....To me that signafies a BYB ....
I agree with the previous quote as well, but don't think with the BYB's it is a matter of not being able to afford health testing or good food. Most of them end up making a ton more money a year breeding puppies than most breeders who are doing everything right, because they are usually pumping puppies out like crazy, and do not go the extra mile with vet physicals, de-worming etc. Most don't care about breeding bitches back to back heats. And many of them have their own stud dogs, so it is all sheer profit, whereas a lot of us have to pay for a ton of stuff and the health testing, sometimes a stud fee, and end up making very little. Most of the BYB's charge a little less than average, some even charge more, but when you are saturating the market with countless puppies, who cares??? They will more than make up for it in quantity. So, I think it is more a matter of just not caring about the puppies they produce as much as the bottom line.
 

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In my experience it is a whole package Arreau . Taking good care of the dogs is important . Feeding them well is an issue. Health is based on Garbage in Garbage out..
If the BYB is all about money they will cut costs in the area of food , testing and the like.... But this is a wee bit off topic isnt it?
The question was how to tell a BYB breeder from a good breeder .. This is one way ....
 

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I disagree that having other breeds signifies a BYB. A puppymill maybe, but there are also many responsible breeder w/ more than one breed. I think the number of litters and adults dogs is a much better way to tell the bad from the good.

Many good and bad Poodle breeders raise more than one variety. Despite what the standard says, there are more differences in the varieties than just height. What's the difference in having 2 or 3 varieties and 2 different breeds? (IE Toy and Standard Poodles vs Maltese and Standard Poodles)
 

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I disagree that having other breeds signifies a BYB. A puppymill maybe, but there are also many responsible breeder w/ more than one breed. I think the number of litters and adults dogs is a much better way to tell the bad from the good.

Many good and bad Poodle breeders raise more than one variety. Despite what the standard says, there are more differences in the varieties than just height. What's the difference in having 2 or 3 varieties and 2 different breeds? (IE Toy and Standard Poodles vs Maltese and Standard Poodles)
Designer dogs. Maltipoo.......thats what would send up a red flag for me. The focus is then on cash. Not a breeder with my expectations thats for sure.
 

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In my experience it is a whole package Arreau . Taking good care of the dogs is important . Feeding them well is an issue. Health is based on Garbage in Garbage out..
If the BYB is all about money they will cut costs in the area of food , testing and the like.... But this is a wee bit off topic isnt it?
The question was how to tell a BYB breeder from a good breeder. This is one way ....
Nope. I don't think it is off topic at all. The whole package is exactly right. If people do not care for their dogs, they certainly aren't going to produce the ultimate in the health of the puppies they produce. If they feed their breeding dogs Old Roy, the puppies growing inside their mothers are certainly not going to be as healthy as they could be. I doubt most BYB's feed their pregnant bitches puppy food to aide in the development of the pups bones. This is all stuff that can help someone tell a good breeder from a bad breeder, and a BYB from a good breeder.
 

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Designer dogs. Maltipoo.......thats what would send up a red flag for me. The focus is then on cash. Not a breeder with my expectations thats for sure.
So if someone has two breeds that are commonly mixed by unscrupulous breeders, you rule them out? Obvioulsy someone breeding and selling mixbreeds is a red flag (it's a dealbreaker for me). I wouldn't assume just b/c someone has Malts and Poodles they are mixing them, especially if the Poodles are Standards. "Morkies" are a pretty popular "designer breed" yet there are several great breeders that breed both Maltese and Yorkies w/o mixing them. Again there are many people who are in it just for money w/o venturing into "designer dogs."
 

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So if someone has two breeds that are commonly mixed by unscrupulous breeders, you rule them out? Obvioulsy someone breeding and selling mixbreeds is a red flag (it's a dealbreaker for me). I wouldn't assume just b/c someone has Malts and Poodles they are mixing them, especially if the Poodles are Standards. "Morkies" are a pretty popular "designer breed" yet there are several great breeders that breed both Maltese and Yorkies w/o mixing them. Again there are many people who are in it just for money w/o venturing into "designer dogs."
I don't think I would rule it out completely without looking into it more. Yet still a point of interest that I want to question. Afterall there would have been a reason for me to seak out the breeder. And I agree with your last sentence 100%. This is true - but it is certainly catching on pretty fast:eek:hwell:
 

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I will tell you honestly, one of the biggest red flags for me is seeing a Poodle breeder who is selling most of the colours. Especially if they are breeding the colours together willy nilly showing they haven't a clue what they are doing!!!
 

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I will tell you honestly, one of the biggest red flags for me is seeing a Poodle breeder who is selling most of the colours. Especially if they are breeding the colours together willy nilly showing they haven't a clue what they are doing!!!
Thats a BIG one IMO.
 

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I think a reputable breeder needs to be active within the breed, This means showing , working , OB , Agility etc......

I think health testing is also important.

I am on the fence with breeders who just health test and don't put titles on their dogs because I can easily take 35 bucks and get an awesome dog with no health testing out of the shelter. I can get titles on this pound puppy so I Think a breeder should be titling.

I got an awesome Amstaff from the shelter in 2007 so I hope to get a OB title or agility she is super smart and easy to train and I did not pay 1500 for her.
 
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