Poodle Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
First, I apologize for thia being a bit length, but you will understand why I inquire of anyones kniweldgw! ☺ ...and secondly, I don't think I'm breaking the rules when I ask if anyone knows of this specific type of Poo. What I am trying to find out, is about the original/ working SP's (that I think are more than norm in Europe)... one of my groomers in AZ was telling me about an old Canadian client that used to have very large & much heavier framed/ boned SP that stood closer to 30-32"+ at the shoulder, and this intrigued me...
My boy (who has been gone now for almost a yr, from quick onset of spleenic cancer - just shy of 11 by 1 month), that I had since about 4 mos. Within less than a yr, I had him highly trained as a physical assist service dog - already foing out in public (by 10 mos) to doing EVERYTHING from helping to do laundry/ helping load dishwasher, to item retrieval, among other things incl helping assist me physically - should I need help getting up, balancing/ walking when needed, etc. I cannot sing enough praises of his dedication (waking up from a dead sleep to run & pick something up I'd drop, to surprisingly disappearing to the next room, only to find him enthusiastically practicing the latest learned task all on his own). Then there was that ever joyous, loving charm to being the biggest goofball is ever met. I also have to say that I've never met a happier dog - from having dreams where the thumping of his tail wagging non-stop would actually wake me up! to being so happy while talking to him that he would literally get shivers up his back. I miss that boy more than ever! He really was the love and pure joy of my life just being him!
But... then there's the problem of his typical SP frame (from what I've been told, is common to the breed in the US where breeding for show form became more the norm vs breeding to keep the more rugged, original working bone structure of Europe). For him being a physical assistance svc dog (despite all the breeders testing & guarantees), I started to feel that it was becoming too much of a strain on his body, when I tried to avoid using him to get up from a fall or just out of bed for balance. Despite his always wanting to do what had become innate, it crushed me the day I felt one of his shoulders clicking. I dont believe it progressed to more than that, or at least it wasn't evident, but it always weighed heavily on my mind. I had a Bouvier prior to him that didn't quite work out (an older pup of 8 mos, but had weird reactions to when I was in severe pain) when that breeder suggested going much younger, with a pup that would grow up 'desensitized' to everything going on with this broken body of mine. Her suggestion obviously worked like a charm & because of his young age, all his training became innate part of him (which was amazing to see). He was always by my side no matter where we went, & had the remarkable ability to assume what to do- even for new/ unforseen situatuons he had not been specifically trained for. He was perfect in almost every way, except for his more dainty, trademark physique - even standing at a solid 27".

While I'm not quite ready yet (mentally), to get a new pup to start training, the thought of a sturdier, possibly larger dog eventually has crossed my mind. While a larger working breed would work for the physicality of such a job - there just is not one that can compare to a Poo, intelligence or personality wise. While 27" isn't anything to sneeze at, I myself am very tall, so bigger would also be better for me in this case - as I always walked with a crutch on one side & him on the other, mostly for if I lost my balance or had trouble standing for too long (we would do what I called 'leap frog' & without putting my full weight on him, I could rest my upper body on his back for a short while) Just as an FYI - I have a rare genetic disease that has many manifestations, including the rapid deterioration of collagen, incl joints & then some, but the early onset of adv degenerative spine disease is what has me in the most/ chronic severe pain, as the worst of it all.
So then I remembered about the European lines of SPs & am thinking that such a Poo would absolutely fit in to my needs perfectly. The only thing is that apart from what my groomer told me of an old client, and what little I can actually find online, maybe someone here would have more, maybe even first hand knowledge of this line of SP.
While I do believe in rescue (I actually have 2 non-Poo rescue dogs now - none that would fit the bill in any, way/ shape & 3 stray kitties I've taken in that would have otherwise died in this brutal monsoon season). For now, I am still in AZ but hopefully going back home to CT within the year - and probably when I will be more ready to start again from scratch & really in need of a svc dog (as the weather certainly cripples me more back there). The drive back by then, may even enable me to be more accessible if there might be a breeder along the way, who knows. BUT for my specific purposes, it is imperative to start training very young, plus it gives me more time to have a working svc dog before having to go through it all over again - that is, if my body is up to the task by that point in time. It is also important to me to have an SP as my svc dog for too many reasons than not - & that every Poo owner just 'gets'! They are certainly one of a kind, in every way!

Anyone getting this far through my post, I thank you in advance, from the bottom of my heart! I also greatly appreciate the sharing of any knowledge/ more specific info on this line you may have!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,697 Posts
I have a Standard, who is my Service Dog. I am sure you are aware that you cannot use a dog for mobility until it is about two years old. I am concerned that you are wanting too much physically from a dog. Yes, I too have an amazingly intelligent Spoo! Couldn't be better, but I care more about damaging him than I do about his helping me. Can you use a walker?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,439 Posts
No dog should be used for mobility service work until after they are 2 years old, as their bodies are growing and changing so much, and especially for large breeds, they take way longer to develop than small dogs. Also, as you know, an average spoo is far too small to be used for weight bearing work. There are some good rules to follow when getting a dog for mobility, regarding height and weight compared to the handler, I don’t know them off the top of my head but am sure they are readily available online, or I can find them out from my trainer if you want me to.

It is unfair to the dog to do weight bearing if they are too small, or to begin when their joints are still developing. I totally understand your desire for another spoo, especially given your last boy’s easy to please nature. However there is a reason that people tend to use Goldens, labs, GSD and larger breeds for this type of work. It’s just not fair to ask this of a smaller dog, and of course no dog should be used until after age two and after hips, elbows, etc have been ofa-ed.

I wish you good luck in your search. I would definitely recommend looking into other breeds for your SD and maybe just get a poodle as a pet if your heart is still aching for one. No reason not to teach a spoo to do all of the things around your home like retrieving things, but the mobility will be too much.

As to large spoos, the only large spoos I have seen come from Bybs and haven’t had any health testing done - so may be a big gamble as to them passing their tests. Even taller spoos are not very heavy because of the way they are built.

Sorry about the loss of your boy. He sounds like such a sweet soul.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,100 Posts
I too have been researching mobility service dogs. You mention you are very tall - weight and height, in addition to the tasks are important in determining what breed of dog to use for the way you plan to use your dog. It's cruel to use a dog that doesn't have the right build.

I realize you are looking for a larger, more stocky poodle, but I suspect you probably should be looking for another breed to help you up from a fall or if you need more than just the lightest touch on the dog to steady yourself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kontiki

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
22,882 Posts
I agree with those who have expressed concern about using a spoo as a weight bearing mobility dog. Larger spoos are potentially more prone to things like hip dysplasia and supporting the full weight of a tall adult could make that worse for the dog. I am training Javelin for mobility assistance but he is only needed to provide a balance for me not to support my weight in any significant weight. If I needed that I would not use him.


I think you would be better off with a breed that normally is large. spoos are not normally very large (or giant to use your word). A very well bred GSD would be a better choice for you IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kontiki

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Firstly, thanks to everyone replying back. Second, thanks to everyone accusing and/or scolding me for something that #1 that I am already well aware of and #2 something that I certainly am NOT guilty of. I can see I won't find any answers that I'm looking for here.
To address any of the judgemental concerns - when I stated that ai needed a larger, heavier boned Standard, though I realize they dont exist in the US bc of the basic standard of breeding over the decades that were more concerned about looks than functionality (& thus, leading g to a whole array of breed issues), they do still exist in Europe. I was just hoping that someone in North America maybe took up the crusade to breed them back to what they originally meant & bred to be - working dogs. Anyone that mentioned GSD's - sorry but they're not anywhere near the size or co firmation that I'm looking for or even want, not to mention, do t want to deal with the array of issues they have bc of selective breeding over the decades, again, more concerned with looks that led to all their problems.

As for mobility assistance, thanks again for the majority of replies that basically addressed me as thoigh I must be ignorant and/or care more about myself than an animal. I obviously find such comments utterly offensive, but I suppose that's the way the world is these days. As an FYI, I trained my 28" (at shoulder) Standard from the day I got him at 4 mos, was trained pretty extensively & was going out in public by the time he turned 1yr & provided occasion mobility assistance for balancing purposes (that put NO strain on him whatsoever) well after he was 2, which averaged more around 3-4 years.
I'm so glad to know that everyone replying has had the experience of extensively training service dogs here... it is a skill not quite as easy as much of the public thi wks or realizes - so you are all a great asset to the disability co.mu it as well. Also so happy to see the list of other breeds that are/ would be completely useless and/or undesirable to me as well. I am a very tall person, and had wanted to have/ find a (hopefully) EUROPEAN Standard that definitely are closer to 30"+ (at shoulder) and are much larger boned Poodles. Though they apparently do not exist here in the US, they absolutely do exist in Europe - which i guess I'm just going to have to fly over to and bring what I'm looking for back and/or also start breeding them myself...

I have had Poodles all of my life (as well as show bred Bouvier's), so I am a bit more experienced than anyone here gives me credit for. I suppose I shouldn't care, but it might be a good point to remember when speaking to other people that you 'think' you may or may not have more experience or knowledge of, comparatively. Theres always someone out there that just may know more than you think you do...

...and lastly, thanks for the push to close my account here. I've had enough of the judgemental, opinionated bs that floats around out there on forums, chat spaces, Twitter, fb, etc. Such a shame that people across the board everywhere, seem to think they're smarter than the rest of the world when they're far from it. Such a shame that it goes for some here too, where I thought people would be more supportive with something in common. Oh well... regardless, good luck to you all
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,271 Posts
All I saw were helpful responses! I'm sorry you saw them differently and are feeling hurt. When you're on a public forum, you're sometimes going to get varying opinions and thoughts--not just the ones you want to hear.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,562 Posts
I am certain you can find a larger Spoo with excellent hips. I did:) My breeder imported from Sweden to reduce the COI in her program and Buck’s sire was enormous. There’s a prejudice in the show world for smaller sided standards, but there is no upper limit in the US on standard height. So they are out here.

I knew you wouldn’t harm such a beloved, exceptional service partner. Cannot get over that he was rehearsing his new commands on his own! I would die for such a dog! So sorry for your heart dog loss. I have been practicing with Buck on helping me up from the ground. He’s big and I’m tiny, and really all I need is purchase and balance. He can bear some weight. He is a fail so far, on “Get help!”

Best wishes on your search.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
22,882 Posts
I don't think anyone offered accusations or other offensive sorts of comments, just alternative viewpoints on the OP's original request (which was made more than a year ago). Since they have said they want to close their account I only hope that some of the thoughtful replies help another member or visitor in some positive way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,439 Posts
All I can say at this point is good luck, as your response was riddled with so much sarcasm that I literally couldn’t even tell what was a joke and what you were serious about. As a complete expert in giant poodles and SD training I cannot imagine why you would even come here to ask our help. Good bye and have a nice life!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,549 Posts
I tried to send you a PM but it said you could not receive them. I hope you haven't left the forum already.

I was wondering if you could inquire to some of the breeders who breed for hunting? I believe I have heard of some of them having larger, sturdier poo's. I personally don't know of any, but maybe some on here can chime in and give you some ideas. I do know that are some in Canada. Maybe you could look in the breeder's information on here and find some that may be close to where you'll be living, or even some you can go to on your way back to CT.

I am so very sorry for your loss of your boy. He sounds like a spectacular dog. I know it seems right now like you'll never find another like him, and you may not. But... Each spoo is so magical in their own way, that if you go into a new dog, not expecting him to be like that last, he'll shine in so many ways you never dreamed possible, and be just as valuable to you.

Best wishes on your journey to a larger spoo. I hope you'll share what you find.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,438 Posts
I am truly sorry you felt offended by some of the replies. I trust they were not meant to be offensive . Some people try to be specific when it comes to service issues ...remember although they are replying to you there are many lurkers the come to this board who are not as knowledgeable as you so people tend to explain further on things you obviously already know. My neighbor has a pretty heavily built poodle, my daughter often pet sits and when she comes home she says our boy is built so different, so much lighter in build though the tw o of them appear to look very much the same. He came to her thru a rescue and is a really nice dog and I think he was bred in Connecticut but I'm not sure. I don't see my neighbor all that often but I will ask if she has any info on the original breeder. I don't think she does being he came from rescue. She just hit the jackpot with this boy, almost 2, obedience trained..had some separation anxiety probably caused by being rehired as its gone now. So there are some bigger heavier built dogs out there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,294 Posts
How about a Labradoodle? They're sturdy. I've met some really nice ones...not that I agree with haphazard breeding so of course, one would presumably look for someone who tests for genetic problems and temperament. But of course, I'm sure you already know that. I don't generally like the promotion of breeding mixed breeds, but...there's a possibility for a sturdier dog. And Labs are awesome but purebred Labs are on the short side.

Or...how about a big, strong dog like a Newfoundland. I love those dogs. They could support some weight I would think.

Poodles are usually, at least what I've seen (haven't seen European poodles...didn't know their standard is different) are fairly slight and not from the working group.

I had a Doberman...from the working group. He was very muscular and sturdy, strong and what a great temperament. Smart and easy to train. He wound up being 29" at the withers, an inch over standard. They too are not meant to be great big dogs, but medium.

I think you are over-internalizing this too much to interpret all that as an attack on you personally. If you think about the issue more than your feelings, you might see that the comments were not accusatory but made in a general sort of way...to cover all bases...trying to explain that a poodle is really not typically a super sturdy, powerful dog and not from the working group and that the breed would not be the best for weight supporting of any significance. The breed was bred for hunting, swimming, retrieving as you know. They're light of foot, have springy pasterns, they're agile and flexible but not power houses.

I too am baffled that you, being so experienced and expert about service dogs would come to the likes of us for advice. You already appear to know about all this, other than you were looking for an out of standard poodle or something. (?) Not sure I'm getting that part right.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,681 Posts
I know a black "golden doodle" who is 80 lbs (not sure of his height) and very Bouvier-esque. He's an excellent therapy dog and has spent most of his life working with the elderly. I fell once while walking him and, while I don't think he was actually trained for this, he very much assisted me with getting back up on my feet. It got me thinking about how marvellous it would be to have a companion like that at all times. (I suffer from balance issues, which often strike without warning.)

Wishing you the best of luck in your search. Losing your last, very special spoo sounds like a terrible tragedy and my heart goes out to you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
280 Posts
Good point by PeggytheParti. In my experience a lot of the Goldendoodles and Labradoodles are taller and more solid than either of the parent breeds. I'm not a huge fan of them in general (I like Goldendoodles better tho) but you could probably find a good one from a breeder that does health testing and breeds for temperament. Look for a breeder that does Puppy Culture, it makes a good start for service dogs.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top