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Discussion Starter #1
A breeder friend of mine who lurks here on occassion has made a suggestion for the forum.I don't know what you all think, or if it is even logistically possible but here goes...

She has been reading the thread about redstandscolorado, and while it appears some of the members have had personal contact with this breeder, the truth is, if someone just had it in for a breeder because they do not like them, or they have a bone to pick for whatever reason, someone could easily come on here and start a thread and really create a lot of damage to a breeder's reputation rightfully or unjustifiably so. Is there any way we could have it set up here so if a thread is begun regarding a breeder, they are sent an email to let them know their operation is being discussed on the forum, with a link, so they have the choice of coming here or not to at least defend themselves? I don't know how much difficulty this could create for the administrators or the moderators because I have never run a forum. But I do know from some of the stuff that has gone on here, that there ARE other breeders who have a whole lot to say about some other breeders even though it is all inneundo and unfounded hogwash. This would just alert a breeder to the fact their kennel has come up and give them a chance to say their piece. Thsi in no way means we are cowtowing to bad breeders, because once they are here we can fire away with questions to confirm or lay to rest concerns that have come up. But it may spare some innocent breeders who are doing their best to do things right and be the best they can be of being badmouthed by a jealous competitor, angry potential buyer who has been denied a puppy, etc.

What do you think? In all fairness, I think it is a humane idea.
 

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Although I agree with the thought that it would be fair to an unsuspecting breeder, and several other things you have mentioned, I am worried about the can of worms this could open up.

It was my experience that nearly all threads that went bad and had to be closed were in the breeding section. These wars get very ugly and mud slinging starts almost immediately. I don't know how that would be effectively moderated. I do know that it takes up a lot of the moderators time to keep an eye on these.

Certainly not all breeders being bashed and called bad are so. But, I wonder if this is the venue through which these problems should be addressed.
Through this forum we have the option to give our own opinion on a breeder that is in the dog house for whatever reason. This has always served as a good avenue for those who disagree to post their opinions and factual information to prove their opinion. I think, as always, it is up to potential puppy buyers to do their research themselves and make their own decisions about a breeder based on the information they have gathered and how they feel about them after contacting them.

This is just my opinion. I would be very interested in hearing what the other moderators have to say about this. Perhaps there is another way to view this that I have not thought of.

Thank you, Arreau, for posting good food for thought.


 

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Although I am not a moderator, I see your points and agree it is a humane idea. But I think this would cause even more chaos TBH.

I do not think moderators should be responsible for contacting breeders being mentioned in a negative light.

IMO there is a reason a breeder is brought up good, bad and indifferent. And knowledge is power when trying to purchase from a good breeder.

I think it would be much easier for a moderator or the people who run this lovely forum to determine some of the content being discussed. As spoospirit said the mud slinging and ugliness that comes out of some of these threads are just a waste of time and energy.

It is obvious there are sh*t stirrers that come on here and zero in on their target for whatever reason, this is why some of us try to call them to the table to nip it in the bud......but the person being targeted has a hard time keeping quiet, I know I would.

Maybe the content of speaking of specific breeders openly should be considered to go to a private conversation or chat if this ever happens.
 

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Tough one, but important to bring up. If everyone was ethical in relating their experiences, it would of course be great. Unfortunately, that is not always the case.
It is a tricky area to be able to share ones poor experiences with a breeder, but man, it's a way to protect others from the same situation! This is has such huge value, as we know a breeders website can be a totally false representation.
I feel for the breeders who dot their i'd and cross their t's, love their dogs and do everything right. It only takes a few people to hurt them,
 

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Maybe the content of speaking of specific breeders openly should be considered to go to a private conversation or chat if this ever happens.
OK... here's another perspective... :lol: There's no shortage of perspectives here, is there??

Pretend that I am a prospective puppy buyer and am looking at ABC Standard Poodles for my next baby (I'm using this kennel name for an example, if there really IS an ABC kennel, I apologize - I don't mean YOU specifically!)

If I start a thread here and ask for information regarding this breeder and a forum member has solid, true information about their program that may help me make an informed decision whether to do business with this kennel (or not) and all conversations between the members who actually KNOW something negative about this breeder are conducted via private message, how will that be helping me know what I should be knowing?

If I go directly to the breeder and ask for references, they'll more than likely cherry pick the people THEY want me talking to and not people who haven't had the best experiences with them (right?) so even though I'm trying to conduct due diligence and get information, if the information I am given is "planted", I'm not learning what I'd need to know...

Am I making any sense at all? :lol: usually not, I know... :)

Anyway - as far as forum members or moderators being tasked with the duty of informing any breeder who has uncomplimentary posts about them here on the forum; I think that may be difficult... what if a thread gets missed? Will the breeder being discussed get miffed when they do find out? Also, who would be the one to judge whether the statements are of sufficient nature for the notice to be given? One person may not see anything wrong with a certain post, while another individual may be deeply offended... It's a matter of that pesky perspective again...

I would say that if there is a member of this forum who is getting uncomfortable with how a breeder related thread is progressing - that person has a choice... they can contact the breeder on their own (it is a free country after all) to let them know they're being discussed; or they can contact a moderator or the administrator who can then take a look at the thread and issue warnings if necessary or close the thread if it gets really out of hand...

I LOVE being a part of this forum. I know there are times when people are called on the carpet for certain things (most commonly breeding - and it's because all of the poodle passionate people on this forum want every poodle baby being produced to have the ultimate chance at a long, healthy life!!) but most of the time, even the disagreements can be had with respect to everyone involved - it only gets ugly if a breeder (or anyone, really) is unable to rationally discuss their viewpoint with maturity when the hard questions are asked...

IMHO...

ps... did I talk too much again? :doh:
 

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I tend to agree that it would be impossible to "fairly" moderate every thread related to a breeder by sending them an email and would probably stir the pot even more. However, I completely see the point Arreau is making because it does seem like sometimes folks just join in order to complain about a breeder. Perhaps, threads such as "Never go to ABC Kennel(taking your line plum:) they take your money and ..........." should not be allowed. Whereas, "has anyone had personal experience with ABC Kennel?" I guess it would really end up the same way, but at least that allows for viewpoints from any angle.


Just a though(shrugs shoulders).
 

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I tend to agree that it would be impossible to "fairly" moderate every thread related to a breeder by sending them an email and would probably stir the pot even more. However, I completely see the point Arreau is making because it does seem like sometimes folks just join in order to complain about a breeder. Perhaps, threads such as "Never go to ABC Kennel(taking your line plum:) they take your money and ..........." should not be allowed. Whereas, "has anyone had personal experience with ABC Kennel?" I guess it would really end up the same way, but at least that allows for viewpoints from any angle.


Just a though(shrugs shoulders).
+1

Well said!
 

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Just my two cents, but I think this is just the nature of the internet. If I see a first-time poster on a forum (any forum) bashing a breeder or company or whatnot, I will stop and question the validity of that post. Does the poster just have a bone to pick? Is it a competitor? Do they have some personal problem with that breeder? On the flip side, if a long-time poster is critical of a breeder or company or whatever, I take it more seriously because they person has already been established within the community.

On the other side of things, a good breeder (or company, or hotel, or whatever) will have enough of a good reputation to overcome someone with a personal agenda. For every one-post wonder, there will be others who will chime in and say they had good experiences. If you are a good breeder and have good dogs, I believe they will speak for themselves at the end of the day.
 

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It seems to me that truth is always protection against libel. If someone were to come on and make claims about a breeder it seems that looking at the facts: breeding practices et al would support or refute the claims (or there may be room for discussion). It seems to me that most good breeders have very little to worry about.

Not too long ago, a buyer came on and complained that a breeder had kept her deposit but not provided a puppy. Looking at the breeder's web site, it was clear that the breeder was running a rather dodgey program. Should we have contacted the breeder to let her know that we were talking about her? To what end? To call her to task?

With the most recent incident surrounding Red Standards, what was said about the breeder that di not turn out to be pretty spot on?

I think the good, bad and the ugly that comes out about breeders just serves to educate people.
 

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I vote for free speech !!!!

Any breeder googling his/her own name will automatically be directed to a thread on this forum and I guess any breeder like any "business" would check the net for "references" - I know I would ;).

I agree with Cbrand in all aspects !

I know "too much for my own good" but do not bring anything up until somebody asks about particular litter or a breeder. And, of course, I always have a proof - good OR bad...

I do not remember that we had any case where given breeder "accused" of "malpractice" actually proved to be "other way around" :rolffleyes:

I think that one of the strongest attributes of this forum is the fact that people do exchange the experience when dealing with certain breeders and help in that way not only future pet-buyers but breeders too !!!

Couple of times our breeder members (including yourself) wanted to know the name of potentially murky breeder so they would be careful about those and not recommend them.

I like the things as they are here ...at least to the most part LOL
 

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If I start a thread here and ask for information regarding this breeder and a forum member has solid, true information about their program that may help me make an informed decision whether to do business with this kennel (or not) and all conversations between the members who actually KNOW something negative about this breeder are conducted via private message, how will that be helping me know what I should be knowing?
I should have added sarcasm to my last original sentence you quoted Plumcrazy. The likelyhood of taking it to PM is not usually going to happen, it was merely a suggestion. Sometime I wish when it does get heated as Mods including yourself have suggested, take it to PM:) We tend to lose the education when people are being obviously ugly.

But I too, want to hear the good, bad and indifferent:)
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Sorry I am slow to respond, I am steam cleaning carpet in between posts! I am all for free speech too! And I do not think going the PM route is the answer. Lies can and are told on PM's just as they can be in threads. My biggest concern (and my friends) is that someone can come on here, one thread wonder or not, and post all kinds of nonsense and BS about someone just because, for whatever reason, they do not like them. I am sure a lot of you have received private messages from a particular member on here, spouting lies and crap about me not being who you think I am, and spouting off all kinds of things about me an my breeding practices. Well, the truth is, this person does not personally know me or anything about me. She is going on things she has been told by two former members and acts as their voice. They both have a beef with me because I have spoken out against them and their ethics and practices. She could do the same thing in a thread about me, and that is fine, and would actually be better because I could then address the matter in public and maybe finally hear the end of it. But if it hadn't been for other members who were either friends who this person did not realize I had a relationship with, or other members ticked at what she was saying, or people wanting my version of things, and sending me copy and pasted copies of their PMs I would never have known what she was saying about me. Maybe I picked up on my friend's comment about this because I am sensitive because of what I have been through. I am not trying to make this thread about me at all, but my point is, all of the things that have been said about me in PM's out to the members would have gone unnoticed by me if others had not brought this to my attention. And to me, letting breeders KNOW their name is being thrown around gives them a chance, just like I have been given a chance, to address the issues being brought up.

We all know from past experience that the bad guys never prevail on here. They just end up looking like even bigger idiots and verifying to everyone that their suspicions or knowledge were correct after all. So, I am not suggesting that these discussions go to private message...this forum is to educate...I think it should continue exactly as it has. I just think as long as there is a slim, even an iota of a possibilty that someone might be spoken of badly because of someone elses sour grapes, they should be given a chance to tell evveryone on here their version of things and either clear things up for everyone, or confirm that they are an idiot and lay our suspicions to rest. A quick email to let them know who we are, where we are, and be given a chance to speak their piece...that's all. BTW...I love it here too in spite of the few who have tried and failed to make my life miserable.
 

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totally hear what your saying.

and one has to be careful with libel/slander as well.... as a forumowner. you can find yoruself up to your elbows with lawyers before you know it.
 

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It seems to me that truth is always protection against libel. If someone were to come on and make claims about a breeder it seems that looking at the facts: breeding practices et al would support or refute the claims (or there may be room for discussion). It seems to me that most good breeders have very little to worry about.

Not too long ago, a buyer came on and complained that a breeder had kept her deposit but not provided a puppy. Looking at the breeder's web site, it was clear that the breeder was running a rather dodgey program. Should we have contacted the breeder to let her know that we were talking about her? To what end? To call her to task?

With the most recent incident surrounding Red Standards, what was said about the breeder that di not turn out to be pretty spot on?

I think the good, bad and the ugly that comes out about breeders just serves to educate people.
Ditto!!!!
I too am for free speech and having threads monitor to such extent gives me a sour taste in my mouth.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Ditto!!!!
I too am for free speech and having threads monitor to such extent gives me a sour taste in my mouth.
You are missing my point. I am not suggesting if we know things that we do not say them. And I am certainly not suggesting these threads be monitored. I am simply suggesting or asking if there is a way to let breeders know their business is being discussed, and giving them an opportunity to refute what is being said, or prove they are exactly what members thought they were in the first place.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
It seems to me that truth is always protection against libel. If someone were to come on and make claims about a breeder it seems that looking at the facts: breeding practices et al would support or refute the claims (or there may be room for discussion). It seems to me that most good breeders have very little to worry about.

Not too long ago, a buyer came on and complained that a breeder had kept her deposit but not provided a puppy. Looking at the breeder's web site, it was clear that the breeder was running a rather dodgey program. Should we have contacted the breeder to let her know that we were talking about her? To what end? To call her to task?

With the most recent incident surrounding Red Standards, what was said about the breeder that di not turn out to be pretty spot on?

I think the good, bad and the ugly that comes out about breeders just serves to educate people.
Yes, what came out about the red breeder was spot on. And I agree, the good, bad and ugly needs to come out about breeders, so long as we are certain it is ALL truth.

Just suppose for a second that you were not a member here. Someone who you denied puppy ownership comes on and lies about their experience with you because they are pissed with you. They talk bad about you, about the conditions at your place, say horrible things about your dogs...now, if you were not a member, how would you know? How could you tell everyone who this is and why they are saying these things? I so agree with you. Everyone needs to know everything and a good breeder really should not have to worry, but the truth is we should all be worried because there are nasty people out there who will say anything under a screen name or alias because they think they can damage an adversary or someone who they feel has dissed them, all the while feeling safe and free of worry of retribution because we REALLY might not know who they are. So, in my mind it is just fair to let the person being talked about knowledge of what is going on so they have a chance to explain their side of things.
 

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Im really surprised at the amount of specific breeder referencing and negative things posted here. Most forums will not allow half of the stuff that goes on here and for good reasons, legal liability. Even if there isn't a final judgement, the threat of a lawsuit and expense of defense is more than most boards want to take on.

And what happens when someone says something about one of the every growing advertised sponsors of this board? Is this free speech going to be allowed or is that going to be censored? I can't imagine many sponsors taking kindly to their products or customer service being negatively implicated on this forum. So what is the difference with that and a breeder? You are playing with fire if you ask me.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I hear you Jillian, but I know how I post. I will not say anything that cannot be proven by going onto the breeder's own web site and pulling out the info, or going to the Poodle Health Registry or Poodlepedigree.com and getting the info there. You cannot be convicted of libel or slander if you are speaking the truth. And, correct me if I'm wrong, if someone brings a case against you and you are found not guilty, are they not responsible for the court costs of the defendant and the plaintiff? I know that is how it works in small claims court here in Canada. If you stick to the truth and stick to facts there should not be a problem.
 

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You are playing with fire if you ask me.
I'm confused about this statement... WHO, exactly, is playing with fire and WHY?? I don't understand what this means...

As far as forum members saying either complimentary or uncomplimentary things about breeders or other advertisers on this forum, as long as they aren't making things up or lying about the breeder or advertiser, I can't see where that would be any problem at all... it is a person's opinion of the product (good or bad) and in this country, I'm pretty sure it's still OK to have an opinion...
 

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Just suppose for a second that you were not a member here. Someone who you denied puppy ownership comes on and lies about their experience with you because they are pissed with you. They talk bad about you, about the conditions at your place, say horrible things about your dogs...now, if you were not a member, how would you know?
Well, I Google my kennel name to see what comes up. That way I can address it if need be.

But how is this public forum different from private listservs or even private conversation at say a dog show. You think we dish it out... sit ringside once in a while! People have opinions. If your opinions differ, tell us why.

As for the negative comments some breeders receive.... God bless this forum. I think this forum has done a great job of educating buyers and owners and of exposing bad breeders.
 
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