Hi Poodle loves, Im looking for a silver moyen poodle breeder. We recently had to put down our beloved standard ,Louie and as I've gotten shorter as I get older think I need a smaller poodle to walk etc. Any ideas? Am open to traveling for right pup and breeder. Thanks , LouieLove
finding a reputable breeder of Moyen poodles
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If you are in the US you can just find a reputable miniature breeder. American miniatures are much bigger than European miniatures. They are actually moyen sized. So there are a lot of moyens in the US its just that you guys call them miniatures.
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You just need to make sure that your breeder knows that you are looking for a bigger mini. My mini is 17" and 18 LB at 8 month, so I would consider him a moyen size. He will probably grow a bit more.
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Big mini or small standard.
A Belington terrier might be the right size and another breed to consider. That's my #2 pick.
"A silver big mini or silver small standard" is pretty specific and should help narrow down who to look for in the pool of breeders.
A Belington terrier might be the right size and another breed to consider. That's my #2 pick.
"A silver big mini or silver small standard" is pretty specific and should help narrow down who to look for in the pool of breeders.
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Our Beau is an oversized mini and with his 8 month birthday this weekend, he’s hit 24 pounds and ~18” tall. Although it’s really difficult for me to measure his height 😌
He was the biggest boy of the litter and ~5.5 pounds at 9 weeks old when we picked him up. We looked at Moyen also, but we’re quite happy with his size.
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Hi and welcome!
I'm very sorry that we're meeting in these circumstances. Louie must have left a large legacy of love.
I'm expanding a bit on the great info from the members above and then, since I don't know how long it's been since you've gone on this quest, mentioning some things may have changed since you last were.
Something to be aware of with moyen/medium/klein poodles is that the medium variety is not a recognized size in the North American registries. It is a primarily European size, recognized by the FCI. In NA, if they're over 15" they're simply smaller standards based on the breed standards. That means that very few North American breeders are trying to breed for that size. They'd be too big to show as miniatures and it would be hard to compete with the more typical standard in the conformation ring. This leaves those breeders without checks and balances so far as maintaining breed standards and potential conformation issues if breeding intervariety.
There are only a very, very few breeders in the US who are importing true medium's from the countries that recognize that size officially.
Most of the folks calling their poodles "medium" are either interbreeding standards and minis, or they simply have miniatures who exceed the 15" limit, or standards who are on the small side of typical, so you'll need to look them over very carefully. Health testing may not be done so look even closer at these breeders.
Karbit usually comes up when someone asks for a reputable medium breeder. Recently, Noir has also been mentioned. They are importing (at least some of) their mediums and seem to be doing health testing.
Look for miniature breeders who are breeding to the upper limit of the variety. Those may be more likely to go oversize. Toys and miniatures in the US are generally bred to the upper limit for best chances in the conformation ring. For the standard variety, there is a "preferred" size for competition, so "small" will likely be about 20-21".
A member recently pointed out that when considering the height alone, every miniature in the US over 13.78" and up to 15", where the standard variety starts in NA, would be considered a medium in an FCI country
.
We often hear from folks that they just want a pet. What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the kind of quality, conscientious breeders I, for one, prefer to support are always breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us.
Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including he puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.
The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.
Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.
Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. There are also poodle specific DNA panels for those testable conditions. Those are companion testing with the OFA/CHIC testing.
Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.
Read thru any contracts that may be listed. If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021-2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.
When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years.
Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.
Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.
Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.
As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".
An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.
Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):
My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.
Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time
My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩
GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...
I'm very sorry that we're meeting in these circumstances. Louie must have left a large legacy of love.
I'm expanding a bit on the great info from the members above and then, since I don't know how long it's been since you've gone on this quest, mentioning some things may have changed since you last were.
Something to be aware of with moyen/medium/klein poodles is that the medium variety is not a recognized size in the North American registries. It is a primarily European size, recognized by the FCI. In NA, if they're over 15" they're simply smaller standards based on the breed standards. That means that very few North American breeders are trying to breed for that size. They'd be too big to show as miniatures and it would be hard to compete with the more typical standard in the conformation ring. This leaves those breeders without checks and balances so far as maintaining breed standards and potential conformation issues if breeding intervariety.
There are only a very, very few breeders in the US who are importing true medium's from the countries that recognize that size officially.
Most of the folks calling their poodles "medium" are either interbreeding standards and minis, or they simply have miniatures who exceed the 15" limit, or standards who are on the small side of typical, so you'll need to look them over very carefully. Health testing may not be done so look even closer at these breeders.
Karbit usually comes up when someone asks for a reputable medium breeder. Recently, Noir has also been mentioned. They are importing (at least some of) their mediums and seem to be doing health testing.
Look for miniature breeders who are breeding to the upper limit of the variety. Those may be more likely to go oversize. Toys and miniatures in the US are generally bred to the upper limit for best chances in the conformation ring. For the standard variety, there is a "preferred" size for competition, so "small" will likely be about 20-21".
A member recently pointed out that when considering the height alone, every miniature in the US over 13.78" and up to 15", where the standard variety starts in NA, would be considered a medium in an FCI country
.We often hear from folks that they just want a pet. What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the kind of quality, conscientious breeders I, for one, prefer to support are always breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us
.Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including he puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.
The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.
Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.
Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. There are also poodle specific DNA panels for those testable conditions. Those are companion testing with the OFA/CHIC testing.
Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.
Read thru any contracts that may be listed. If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021-2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.
When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years.
Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.
Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.
Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.
As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".
An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.
Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):
My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.
Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time
My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩
GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...
I love Bedlingtons but unfortunately my partner doesn't so... but thanks!
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Moyen is not a size recognized in the US, so reputable breeders working with true moyens of any color are quite rare in the US. Unfortunately there was a fad for moyens about a decade ago, and a lot of not so great breeders got into the market back then. (Some people get quite testy when the word moyen is even mentioned, due to these bad associations.) I think a lot of the opportunistic breeders subsequently shifted over to doodle breeding, but you still need to be very selective when searching for moyen breeders. As curlflooffan suggested, you might have better luck searching for miniature breeders with dogs on the upper end of the range. Something also to consider is that some miniature and moyen breeders specialize in sporting dogs; you should talk to the breeder about whether your lifestyle would work with the offspring of their lines.
Some moyen breeders who are reputed to do decent health testing, although none specialize in silver to my knowledge:
Karbit in Texas has one of the best known moyen breeding programs in the US. She imports breeding stock from Europe
Noir, in Missouri, is another breeder I would consider
Moonrise in South Carolina works with miniatures and small standards; many are parti
Great Lakes in Michigan works with phantoms and unusual colors
Some miniature breeders who have some silver breeding stock include:
Amity Valley in Minnesota
Safranne in Minnesota
Absolute Silver in Minnesota
Some moyen breeders who are reputed to do decent health testing, although none specialize in silver to my knowledge:
Karbit in Texas has one of the best known moyen breeding programs in the US. She imports breeding stock from Europe
Noir, in Missouri, is another breeder I would consider
Moonrise in South Carolina works with miniatures and small standards; many are parti
Great Lakes in Michigan works with phantoms and unusual colors
Some miniature breeders who have some silver breeding stock include:
Amity Valley in Minnesota
Safranne in Minnesota
Absolute Silver in Minnesota
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In the US we need to be so very careful about moyen breeders. Today I was doing a cruise through some sites I hadn't checked out before, and I was pretty discouraged with the results. Issues I saw included merle breeding stock, dogs bred under 2 years old, dogs bred without papers, stubby legged conformation, and simply horrible grooming.
I'm starting to get fussier about grooming as I see more web sites. I'm fine with casual shots of happy dogs romping in mud wallows. I'm fine with dogs being photographed in non-traditional trims, like a teddy bear clip or even a basic short utility clip. However, there's a difference between a well maintained teddy bear trim and an untrimmed unbrushed mop. There's a difference between a German clip and a shave down. I really wonder what is going on if a breeder doesn't have a single good quality picture of their dog groomed nicely. Do the dogs simply never get groomed apart from a biannual shave down? If so, what other care is also getting skipped?
I'm starting to get fussier about grooming as I see more web sites. I'm fine with casual shots of happy dogs romping in mud wallows. I'm fine with dogs being photographed in non-traditional trims, like a teddy bear clip or even a basic short utility clip. However, there's a difference between a well maintained teddy bear trim and an untrimmed unbrushed mop. There's a difference between a German clip and a shave down. I really wonder what is going on if a breeder doesn't have a single good quality picture of their dog groomed nicely. Do the dogs simply never get groomed apart from a biannual shave down? If so, what other care is also getting skipped?
Welcome to PF.
Longer answer? Yes, since merle is not a color pattern traditionally seen in Poodles. Because of the way it's inherited, it can't "hide" like phantom, sable, or brindle can. It more than likely was introduced into Poodles by cross breeding with herding breeds, and then falsifying paperwork. After just a few generations of breeding back to Poodle, there wouldn't be enough "other" DNA to show that the dogs were originally crosses of other breeds.
Short answer? Yes.
Longer answer? Yes, since merle is not a color pattern traditionally seen in Poodles. Because of the way it's inherited, it can't "hide" like phantom, sable, or brindle can. It more than likely was introduced into Poodles by cross breeding with herding breeds, and then falsifying paperwork. After just a few generations of breeding back to Poodle, there wouldn't be enough "other" DNA to show that the dogs were originally crosses of other breeds.
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I personally enjoy multicolored poodles. My previous pair were both parti and phantom. However, even I draw the line at merle. The reason is that breeding a merle to a merle dog will usually produce puppies that are blind and/or deaf. Merle is a dominant trait and will always manifest on a black or brown based dog. However it can't express on a red based dog (red/apricot/cream/white), because red based dogs don't have eumelanin. Therefore, a red based dog could be a carrier without anyone seeing it. That's not a problem in traditionally merle breeds like Aussies, because all Aussies are genetically brown or black. There's no way for the merle gene to hide in the Aussie breed. Poodles, in contrast have huge numbers of red based dogs, and poodle breeders routinely breed them together. Imagine how horrifying it would be for a breeder to pair two lovely white poodles and get a litter of blind deaf puppies.
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Welcome to PF.
You've tagged on to an old thread that has a lot of good info on the medium/moyen variety in the North American registries.
You might find it helpful to read thru it, if you haven't already, and if you have further questions on other breeders or recommendations, it'll help if you start your own thread so you and we can track the info easier.
Backing THh's short answer - this breeder is one I would never choose for myself and so could not recommend to others.
Merle-no
Doodle breeding - no
"health testing" - no
DNA testing is a companion to the recommended poodle testing. It does not replace the PCA recommended testing. If a poodle is born of two miniature parents it is a miniature, even if it goes oversize. If born of an intervariety cross, the two varieties have different testing recommendations.
"moyen/medium" is not just a size and is not recognized as a variety outside of the FCI registry. Unless she's importing her breeding dogs from outside the US and Canada, she's either breeding intervariety standard to mini deliberately or is simply breeding small standards and using marketing terms to catch a buyer's eye.
When you say moyen, what size do you think of?
AKC, UKC, Canadian Kennel Club (CKC)
Miniatures are 10"-15" at the shoulder. Over 15" is a standard but you'll rarely see standards under 20".
The FCI medium size starts under 15", at 13.78" and goes up to 17.7".
This means that a large number of the AKC/UKC/CKC miniatures would be considered mediums by height without needing to find a truly responsible breeder using the imported dogs.
We also have members whose miniatures go what's called oversize. This can't be predicted usually.
For an interesting graph of the range of poodle sizes of PF members, Pavie has created this:
Last updated approx 30d past, 64 poodles plotted from the US, Canada, The UK, Europe, and I'm sure I've missed some participants.
![Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Plot]()
IIRC, the poodles you see over the 15" up to the gap where the standards are grouped are born of miniature parents and are considered oversize minis due to the parentage.
Not all registries tie the size nomenclature to parentage.
I think that most people sort of assume that the medium would be that 15"-20" range but that's not the case for a true medium.
Working on the assumption that you are searching for a quality, conscientious breeder, I'm adding some tips.
You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.
We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are always breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us.
It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.
About reviews,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.
Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.
The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.
If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.
But
I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.
Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.
Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for miniatures and toys there is also one DNA test.
The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.
There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.
CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA
Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.
Standard Poodle
Poodle-Health-Screening-2020.pdf (poodleclubofamericafoundation.org)
A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.
Read thru any contracts that may be listed.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.
When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.
Gender preferences will also limit your options.
Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.
Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.
Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.
As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.
Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.
One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.
An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.
Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
USA
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.
My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.
Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time
My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.
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A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...
The phrase "Championship lines" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...
"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.
You've tagged on to an old thread that has a lot of good info on the medium/moyen variety in the North American registries.
You might find it helpful to read thru it, if you haven't already, and if you have further questions on other breeders or recommendations, it'll help if you start your own thread so you and we can track the info easier.
Backing THh's short answer - this breeder is one I would never choose for myself and so could not recommend to others.
Merle-no
Doodle breeding - no
"health testing" - no
DNA testing is a companion to the recommended poodle testing. It does not replace the PCA recommended testing. If a poodle is born of two miniature parents it is a miniature, even if it goes oversize. If born of an intervariety cross, the two varieties have different testing recommendations.
"moyen/medium" is not just a size and is not recognized as a variety outside of the FCI registry. Unless she's importing her breeding dogs from outside the US and Canada, she's either breeding intervariety standard to mini deliberately or is simply breeding small standards and using marketing terms to catch a buyer's eye.
When you say moyen, what size do you think of?
AKC, UKC, Canadian Kennel Club (CKC)
Miniatures are 10"-15" at the shoulder. Over 15" is a standard but you'll rarely see standards under 20".
The FCI medium size starts under 15", at 13.78" and goes up to 17.7".
This means that a large number of the AKC/UKC/CKC miniatures would be considered mediums by height without needing to find a truly responsible breeder using the imported dogs.
We also have members whose miniatures go what's called oversize. This can't be predicted usually.
For an interesting graph of the range of poodle sizes of PF members, Pavie has created this:
Last updated approx 30d past, 64 poodles plotted from the US, Canada, The UK, Europe, and I'm sure I've missed some participants.
IIRC, the poodles you see over the 15" up to the gap where the standards are grouped are born of miniature parents and are considered oversize minis due to the parentage.
Not all registries tie the size nomenclature to parentage.
I think that most people sort of assume that the medium would be that 15"-20" range but that's not the case for a true medium.
Working on the assumption that you are searching for a quality, conscientious breeder, I'm adding some tips.
You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.
We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are always breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us
.It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.
About reviews,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.
Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.
The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.
If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.
But
I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.
Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.
Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for miniatures and toys there is also one DNA test.
The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.
There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.
CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA
- Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚ - Eye Examination
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚ - Patellar Luxation
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)
- Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚ - Eye Examination
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚ - Patellar Luxation
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚ - Hip Dysplasia (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.
Standard Poodle
- Hip Dysplasia (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation - Eye Examination
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚ - Health Elective (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚
Poodle-Health-Screening-2020.pdf (poodleclubofamericafoundation.org)
A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.
Read thru any contracts that may be listed.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.
When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.
Gender preferences will also limit your options.
Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.
Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.
Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.
As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.
Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.
One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.
An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.
Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
USA
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.
My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.
Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time
My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.
To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.
-----
A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...
The phrase "Championship lines" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...
"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.
Joined
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6,184 Posts
Karbit in Texas has a well known program. I just checked the web site, and it looks like she is retiring a black breeding dog. She also has a litter of puppies posted. I don't know if the site is up to date, but it is certainly worth contacting her.
Joined
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16,207 Posts
Is the Merle named Grayson? If so, click on his Embark results: 6.1% “supermutt.”
I’m not sure why they’re misrepresenting him as a poodle, especially since they are open about being a doodle breeder.
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