[sam20e]

Hello friends,

Im having feeding issues with my 6.5 yrs old toy poodle. he is just 5.8kg/12lbs. I'm giving him 1st choice brand kibbles mixed with some wet food (once daily - at night). the thing is, at times he is not eating properly. Leaves like half of his food. even though my kibbles main ingredient is chicken meal, he cannot take any wet food with chicken (for some weird reason he will have upset stomach with a lot of blood n his stool ) because of this im being very careful. I dont like to feed him random stuff. just 1 slice of wholemeal bread in between and then his kibbles thats all. I tried few different wet food brand also. I mixed them with his kibbles but its not working... im scared to change his kibbles brand coz of his sensitive stomach...

any idea? should i completely switch to wet food? I know its not gonna be cheap but any other idea? I cannot give him and cooked/raw food also.. bit stuck here

so far he is ok with Duck, Lamb wet food topups.

 

[fjm]

Is he actually losing weight? Have you tried feeding him twice a day, or even leaving the kibble down for him to eat when he wants to? The chicken intolerance is worrying, as it is an ingredient in so many foods even when not specifically mentioned. I wonder if perhaps chicken in the kibble is making him uncomfortable, even if it does not have the extreme effect of the wet food. I think, if he is losing weight, I would try limited ingredient kibble that does not contain chicken, or feed only chicken-free wet food, and feed twice a day.

 

[sam20e]

Is he actually losing weight? Have you tried feeding him twice a day, or even leaving the kibble down for him to eat when he wants to? The chicken intolerance is worrying, as it is an ingredient in so many foods even when not specifically mentioned. I wonder if perhaps chicken in the kibble is making him uncomfortable, even if it does not have the extreme effect of the wet food. I think, if he is losing weight, I would try limited ingredient kibble that does not contain chicken, or feed only chicken-free wet food, and feed twice a day.

Hi, thanks for the reply.

No he is not losing weight. I tried feeding him twice a day but end up wasting kibbles if i leave the kibbles overnight he wont eat it. Yea im gonna explore other options like wet food.

 

[Rose n Poos]

Just for background, how much is he fed daily? and is this a new thing, recently started or occasionally since you've had him?

 

[sam20e]

Just for background, how much is he fed daily? and is this a new thing, recently started or occasionally since you've had him?

its not a new thing.. i dont feed him a lot because he is a picky eater. i'd say around 70-80g daily?

 

[Rose n Poos]

Ok, so any wet food with chicken is right out but dry kibble with chicken meal by itself, or with alternative protein, is not a problem except he doesn't much like it, and the reason for the wet topper is to make the kibble more appealing. Does that cover the important points?

If it does, I'm sure you've been thru a number of kibbles already. When was the last time you tried something different?
Do you remember some of the ones that didn't fly?

I ask because I also have a picky eater but switched again recently and to my great surprise, he's been eating his kibble, along with the usual topper of whatever dinner protein and veggies we had, for two to three months now, with no reluctance or fuss. If anything, he's eating a bit faster than before and even makes little "feed me" noises along with a bit of a pre dining jig.

Leading up to the possibility of trying yet another kibble to find his taste buds truly tickled. Brainstorming will continue .

 

[fjm]

If he is an appropriate weight for his size he may simply be good at self regulating - 70g of kibble is quite a lot for a toy dog. Don't pay too much attention to the amounts suggested on the packet, as they tend to be on the high side. It is better to look at calories and energy requirements - lots of calculators online.

 

[PeggyTheParti]

Hi there!

If he's getting a quarter of his day's calories from a slice of bread, is it possible he's just not all that hungry? Or perhaps the bread is bloating him, which would make him reluctant to eat a full meal.

If he's not losing weight and is otherwise healthy, I'd personally not worry. Our poodle is good at self-regulating. She eats when she's hungry.

I'd be more concerned that by replacing so much of your dog's daily calories with bread, he's missing out on valuable nutrients.

 

[sam20e]

Ok, so any wet food with chicken is right out but dry kibble with chicken meal by itself, or with alternative protein, is not a problem except he doesn't much like it, and the reason for the wet topper is to make the kibble more appealing. Does that cover the important points?

If it does, I'm sure you've been thru a number of kibbles already. When was the last time you tried something different?
Do you remember some of the ones that didn't fly?

I ask because I also have a picky eater but switched again recently and to my great surprise, he's been eating his kibble, along with the usual topper of whatever dinner protein and veggies we had, for two to three months now, with no reluctance or fuss. If anything, he's eating a bit faster than before and even makes little "feed me" noises along with a bit of a pre dining jig.

Leading up to the possibility of trying yet another kibble to find his taste buds truly tickled. Brainstorming will continue .

Thanks for the reply. This is what im feeding him right now - Toy & Small Breeds - Adult

never changed his kibbles before. I'm ok to try some other brands like wellness but im not sure if he will like that or not but its worth a try

If he is an appropriate weight for his size he may simply be good at self regulating - 70g of kibble is quite a lot for a toy dog. Don't pay too much attention to the amounts suggested on the packet, as they tend to be on the high side. It is better to look at calories and energy requirements - lots of calculators online.

Yup, he is not a very active dog. mostly indoor exercises only.. i will check out those calculators.

Hi there!

If he's getting a quarter of his day's calories from a slice of bread, is it possible he's just not all that hungry? Or perhaps the bread is bloating him, which would make him reluctant to eat a full meal.

If he's not losing weight and is otherwise healthy, I'd personally not worry. Our poodle is good at self-regulating. She eats when she's hungry.

I'd be more concerned that by replacing so much of your dog's daily calories with bread, he's missing out on valuable nutrients.

Yes, im not giving him only a slice of bread daily because like you said its not a balanced food. I just give him 1-2 slices in between and at around 9pm he will get his kibbles mixed with wet food..

 

[PeggyTheParti]

Yes, im not giving him only a slice of bread daily because like you said its not a balanced food. I just give him 1-2 slices in between and at around 9pm he will get his kibbles mixed with wet food..

2 slices of bread would be close to 50% of his daily calories. So by filling his little belly with bread, he's not going to be taking in enough nutrients from his kibble.

Is there a reason you're giving him bread?

 

[fjm]

Agreed - that is a lot of bread for a small dog! I would cut out the bread, or reduce it to a couple of pieces the size of your thumbnail, and offer him a few pieces of kibble instead. I suspect the problem is less that he is not eating than that he is eating too much of the wrong things.

 

[sam20e]

Hm that's a valid point. I normally give him only 1 slice. Sometimes 2 slices. Mainly because I thought he'll be hungry coz I'm feeding him only one time.

So basically this is the routine -

2pm - 1 or 2 slices of bread
8-9pm - kibbles with wet food.

I guess you're right. He is very small so I think his tummy is filling fast. But then again today I never feed him anything. Not even a slice of bread. Then I just gave him kibbles mixed with some wet food and he ate only half of it :/

 

[sam20e]

Can you recommend a reliable calories calculator?

His profile :

Toy poodle
13lbs
6.5 yrs old
Activity level - normal
Daily treat - none

 

[Rose n Poos]

Good thoughts above. Here's the feeding guidelines from what I feed my boys. These guidelines assume no additional food given which is why the kibble amount for my two is adjusted downwards.

Weight	Feeding Amount
(lbs)	(kg)	(cups)	(grams)
3 - 12	1.4 - 5.4	1/2 - 1	49 - 97
13 - 20	5.9 - 9.1	1 - 1-1/2	97 - 146

They currently weigh 12.5 lbs for my smaller and 14 lbs for the larger.
Their kibble portion is at the low end of the guidelines, about half of the suggested amount.
They each get 1/4 cup, adjusted slightly under for the little guy and just over for the larger, two times a day, brunch at noon ish and dinner at 7pm ish. They get the topper as described previously with each meal and a few small treats scattered thru the day for training rewards.
We take a walk of a bit under a mile daily, weather dependent, we play in the backyard for short bursts two or three times daily.
If your boys activity level is equal to or less than that, I'd consider cutting his full daily portion by 1/3 to start
and I'd consider trying to split his daily portion to two meals daily. This way he'll have a more even flow of nutrients thru his full day and not all at once later in the evening close to bedtime.

 

[cowpony]

My understanding is that dogs need roughly 30 to 40 calories per pound. That would put your dog at needing roughly 500 calories a day, maybe less if he's not all that active.
Bread is around 110 calories per slice.
I couldn't find your brand's calorie count at a quick glance; the kibbles I feed Pogo are around 390 calories per cup.

So, with those numbers in mind, half a cup of kibble and two slices of bread might be plenty of calories for a mellow middle aged dog.

 

[Asta's Mom]

I agree with the posters - reduce the bread, find a kibble that is not chicken based, try feeding a little earlier and cut the amount in 2 servings. I think the answer may be the kibble. Keep us posted.

 

[PeggyTheParti]

You definitely want to look at calories, not serving size, as some kibbles are more calorically dense than others.

Using the formula from this Mercola article, your dog needs approximately 247 calories per day to maintain his weight.

Easy Tips for Helping Your Overweight Pet Slim Down

Get these pet weight loss tips to help your overweight pet go back to his/her ideal weight.

healthypets.mercola.com

This is a little lower than the 25-30 recommended calories per pound I've read elsewhere. But seems accurate given your dog's low activity level.

Instead of bread, I think he should be offered a second serving of kibble, to ensure his nutritional requirements are met. Talk to your vet about this to verify. I'm confident they'd say the same thing, but they know your dog's health best.

Transition slowly, reducing the amount of bread over a period of weeks, ideally by breaking it into small pieces and incorporating a little more kibble every few days. And be sure to keep an eye on his weight.

Of course he's going to prefer the bread. I'd happily eat 10-15 slices a day myself if allowed! (Which would be the human equivalent of what he's currently getting.) But you know better than he does.

 

[Rose n Poos]

PTP, you're right about figuring the kcals to determine the amount so I set myself on a refresher course. What the OP is feeding now per the website link provided is:

Daily feeding guidelines

adult

Kg	Lb	Grams	Cups
1 - 8 years
0.5 - 1	1 - 2	15 - 25	1/8 – 1/4
1 - 1.5	2 - 3	25 - 35	1/4 – 1/3
1.5 - 3	3 - 6	35 - 70	1/3 – 2/3
3 - 5.5	6 - 12	70 - 110	2/3 – 1
5.5 - 9.5	12 - 20	110 - 145	1 – 1 1/4
A standard 250 ml (8 oz)measuring cup = 115 g Calorie content Metabolizable Energy(calculated) 475 kcal/CUP 4130 kcal/kg

so if the amount fed is 70 gms or 2/3 cup approx per sam20e, then the kcal per serving is approximately 320 kcals.

**
To compare the kcals, here's the info on what my boys are now eating. Their 1/4c x2 or 1/2 cup = 49 gms. With the additional bits I add, call it 65 gms daily. The kcal figures here are 393 kcal per cup, a substantial reduction from sam20e's food rating of 475 kca. I'm guessing that means the food sam20e is feeding is more nutrient dense.

Feeding Guidelines

RECOMMENDED DAILY FEEDING AMOUNTS
Using a standard 8 oz/250 ml measuring cup which contains approximately 97 g of Pro Plan.

Weight	Feeding Amount
(lbs)	(kg)	(cups)	(grams)
3 - 12	1.4 - 5.4	1/2 - 1	49 - 97
13 - 20	5.9 - 9.1	1 - 1-1/2	97 - 146

Calorie Content (fed) 4034 kcal/kg 393 kcal/cup

***

Here's what I had been feeding before our last switch, same amounts as above

Calorie Content (FED)
Metabolizable Energy 4,262 kcal/kg; 476 kcal/cup

	2 – 8 lb	9 – 12 lb	13 – 20 lb	21 – 30 lb
Adult Maintenance	¼ - ¾	¾ - 1	1 - 1¼	1¼ - 1¾
Weight Loss	⅛ - ⅜	⅜ - ½	½ - ¾	¾ - 1

*Standard 8 oz dry measuring cup
Puppies: Feed up to twice the adult maintenance amount shown above.
Pregnant/nursing females: Feed up to three times the adult maintenance amount shown above.

This food has a comparable kcal count to the food sam20e is giving.

***

My boys were very slowly continuing to gain weight on the higher kcal food, hardly ounces over months.
With the new food, lower kcal, they have dropped a very few ounces over the last several months on it.

***

To go along with PTP's link, I found this from the Veterinary College at Tufts

How much should I feed my dog or cat?

Veterinarians decide how many calories your pet needs by looking at their current weight, their body condition (are they over or under-weight or just right?), and what they’re currently eating.

vetnutrition.tufts.edu

and then calorie calculators from two other sites which I think are similar to the one PTP linked to but give a bit more detail, reminding that these are all guidelines only:

How Many Calories Does a Dog Need?

A couple of weeks ago in response to my post about the new AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) labeling requirement to include calorie counts on all pet foods, Tom Collins asked

www.petmd.com

Basic Calorie Calculator | Veterinary Medical Center

vet.osu.edu

*

With all this said, it might just be that sam20e's little guy is self regulating, as many poodles do. If he likes the kibble and toppers as described then possibly just reducing the kibble amount by a moderate percentage, reducing the bread to treat like status and replacing it with half the daily kibble portion as a first meal of the day, and giving the second half of the daily kibble as an evening meal will work for his poo.

****

Stay in touch and let us know how your boy is doing .

 

[Michigan Gal]

Try feeding him twice a day. When you eat breakfast, and around the time that you eat dinner. Give half at each meal, then see if he needs more in the morning and less in the evening. He does not need bread.

 

[Maggied]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

No he is not losing weight. I tried feeding him twice a day but end up wasting kibbles if i leave the kibbles overnight he wont eat it. Yea im gonna explore other options like wet food.

My mini eats anything. But the breeder said a half cup of food day was the right amount. I never can get grams straight, but I wonder if he needs that much. She weighs 17 pounds.