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Discussion Starter #1
So, I've been looking at a LOT of breeders' web sites. I saw the thread about Ash's Mystical in NV, and it brought to mind this breeder:

Standard Poodles For Sale Puppies Breeder White Cream Red Standard Poodles

What do you think? I, according to what I've learned from the forum, see several red flags. Additionally, I personally feel when people toss Jesus all over whatever they're doing, it makes me think they're trying to manipulate me. Distract me with, "Oh, Look! Jesus!" and while my head is turned, steal my wallet.

Whether they're sincere in their beliefs or not, I wish that they would use fewer bible references, and more information on, say, biosensor training, pedigrees, or temperament testing. Actually, if the information is there, it's buried in a lot of irrelevant (to me) junk.
 

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I entirely agree about the biblical quotations - very strange! To be fair, though, the pedigree information is all there for each of the dams/studs (saccherinely referred to as "Ladies" and "Gentlemen"). Most of the site strikes me as weird in the extreme, but then I am a Brit! We would be wary of any breeder who offered to ship a pup to someone they had not met - the advantage of living in a small country.
 

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I would not buy from them if It was me buying.

Are any of her dogs health tested ? She has 2 litters born around the same time 17 puppies they are trying to sell right now :wacko:
 

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Yes. We don't think anything of shipping a puppy to someone you haven't met. Or buying a puppy from a breeder you haven't met. One of the disadvantages of living in a huge country!!
 

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Shipping is fairly normal here. just a large city to large city can be a 7 hour drive at the shortest.
Biblical qoutes seems to be big with poodle and mini aussie breeders. Of course it can be just that i'm only parusing those sites mostly. but again i say MINI aussie (HMMM and DOODLE) breeders which well tends to put them into the 'i don't respect you' catagory. Course i'm also very sensitive to it being from a very religion has caused issues in our family type family. But then i have issues with schools saying grace and using christian things in it- why can't it just be a 'thank you' ... ok i'm rambling.

I do think that parts of the US it is more standard to see biblical qoutes then others.. . you know?

Oy the pic on the first page :( not what i'd use but tha'ts just picking hairs.

I don't agree with selling intact dogs to just who ever. Personally i think it should be on a co own basis only- but that's me. They do at least state in their contract that using the dog to mix breed is not allowed. How to police that though? doubt it. not sure what's with the not registering it CKC though...

The contract itself is not bad... but what's with the 'if being given for a gift or a surprise" OY i don't think that's kosher what so ever. Gifts/surprises should never be a dog!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Shipping is fairly normal here. just a large city to large city can be a 7 hour drive at the shortest.
Biblical qoutes seems to be big with poodle and mini aussie breeders. Of course it can be just that i'm only parusing those sites mostly. but again i say MINI aussie (HMMM and DOODLE) breeders which well tends to put them into the 'i don't respect you' catagory. Course i'm also very sensitive to it being from a very religion has caused issues in our family type family. But then i have issues with schools saying grace and using christian things in it- why can't it just be a 'thank you' ... ok i'm rambling.

I do think that parts of the US it is more standard to see biblical qoutes then others.. . you know?

Oy the pic on the first page :( not what i'd use but tha'ts just picking hairs.

I don't agree with selling intact dogs to just who ever. Personally i think it should be on a co own basis only- but that's me. They do at least state in their contract that using the dog to mix breed is not allowed. How to police that though? doubt it. not sure what's with the not registering it CKC though...

The contract itself is not bad... but what's with the 'if being given for a gift or a surprise" OY i don't think that's kosher what so ever. Gifts/surprises should never be a dog!
Y'know, if the Bible quotes had had more to do with dogs, or animals in general, rather than reminders of their belief that their religion is the only way to be a good person, I would have gone along with it.

Thanks for finding the pedigree page. I feel a little silly that I missed it- in my defense, however, I was still reeling from all the Jesus.
 

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I would not buy from them if It was me buying.

Are any of her dogs health tested ? She has 2 litters born around the same time 17 puppies they are trying to sell right now :wacko:
That's one of the things I'm wondering! Plus, all of those puppies that need homes make me a bit nauseous. I mean, WHY breed yet more puppies if you can't find homes for the (LARGE) number of ones you already have??
 

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Well, I have been looking at a puppy from them, and have gone to their kennel to physically meet the puppies, and I really can say they are doing a great job. All of their dogs, puppies included, are well socialized and friendly. They know each dog and puppy's personality and pedigree, dates of whelping off the tops of their heads.

They might not be breeding to a "show" standard, though there are some of their dogs being shown and doing well. The puppies that are for sale are the last of litters, and most of their litters are sold by the time they are born. The dogs are all happy, healthy, active. They do all their own grooming (one of the owners used to own a grooming salon) and that's a huge job in and of itself.

The Christian stuff, well, it's their site, and something is going to offend somebody somewhere.

I have no qualms about a puppy from them, and feel better about their knowledge of the breed than the lady I got my girl from, who also breeds labradoodles (shudder).

The only gripe I had was thier kennel employee used some questionable language in front of my two boys, but she is seriously country. She still seemed to be knowledgable about the dogs/puppies.
 

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The other poster is Canadian, maybe that's Canadian Kennel Club?

Family Affair's dogs are AKC, not Continental Kennel Club.
 

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That is a whole lot of breeding dogs and quite frankly a whole lot of older unsold puppies. They look like they are doing some testing on their dogs which is great, but otherwise they look like a typical high volume breeding operation. Looking at their pedigrees, their dogs look like they themselves come from other high volume operations (it's great that these guys sell each other breeding dogs!)

As usual with these sort of operations I always want to ask.... if you have time to breed this many dogs, don't you have time to do something else with your dogs? Show? Obedience? Agility? Tracking? Therapy? Poodles can be so much more than walking puppy factories.
 

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There are a ton of dogs, they do not live in the homes with the owners, and instead live in paddocks.
Its kind of like a poodle plantation.

They do do some testing but they are not opposed to breeding on prelims, and mainly only test for hips. (may be more testing by now)

They are breeding more for color and what popular than for correct conformation.


this is where we got Jamie, before we knew any better. They also had us bring her home at 6 weeks.

All in all they are VERY nice people, with a clean, well organized facility, and yes the dogs are friendly and do not act like kennel dogs, but there is no reason to have that many breeding animals other than to turn a profit.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The Christian stuff, well, it's their site, and something is going to offend somebody somewhere.

I have no qualms about a puppy from them, and feel better about their knowledge of the breed than the lady I got my girl from, who also breeds labradoodles (shudder).

The only gripe I had was thier kennel employee used some questionable language in front of my two boys, but she is seriously country. She still seemed to be knowledgable about the dogs/puppies.
To clarify: I'm not 'offended' by the Christian stuff- I'm just suspicious of people that spackle Jesus over what they're doing, to distract you from the holes in their walls. I.e., I feel that they're using christian references to get average dog-seekers to look less critically at their actual breeding practices.

I'm glad to hear that the dogs seem happy. I just wonder how long the dogs can STAY happy if the breeders keep producing more and more puppies that they fail to sell.
 

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Don't be too Quick to Judge

I was a little put off by all the bible references and the number of dogs. I've seen shady people hide behind "religion"... After talking to Wendy, one of the co-breeders, I was impressed. She was very knowledgable and took quite a bit of time answering my questions. Since I had a 9 hour drive, I wanted to be sure they were legit. I had also visited a number of breeders that seemed great on the phone and web but in person, were a little scary. a lot of "in home" breeders have a ton of dogs stuffed in crates that are not only missing human socialization, but interaction with each other.

I got my sister to go for a visit and she gave a big thumbs up. Wendy helped us pick a puppy and was very honest about trying to find the right personality for our situation. They do things a bit differently but if you think about it, the show breeders have motives that are not always best for the buyer or the breed (such as excessive inbreeding). Family Affair Standards has a very nice setup with very organized records.

We have had our puppy for two and a half weeks now and are so happy. Our vet was surprised and impressed. He said he usually finds at least two issues of concern with standards and other purebreds. He said this puppy was very healthy. Also interesting, I've had no socialization issues. That may be due to his individual personality (very strong and outgoing). He's happy and curious and loves everyone. Now, if I can just get past the nippy stage! Haha!
 

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They do things a bit differently but if you think about it, the show breeders have motives that are not always best for the buyer or the breed (such as excessive inbreeding). Family Affair Standards has a very nice setup with very organized records.
Who ever told you that bit of information is wrong...flat out
the purpose of "show" breeders is to breed the standard poodle so that it matches the written standard put forth by the PCA...the end, I'm about 100% sure that there aren't breeders choosing studs with a malevolent motive behind them such as making INBRED DOGS :afraid:

I think its odd whenever I see someone adamantly defending a breeder that clearly has their priorities WRONG...when they themselves have little to no experience or involvement with an actual "show" breeder
So where would they be getting their comparison?...
 

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Who ever told you that bit of information is wrong...flat out
the purpose of "show" breeders is to breed the standard poodle so that it matches the written standard put forth by the PCA...the end, I'm about 100% sure that there aren't breeders choosing studs with a malevolent motive behind them such as making INBRED DOGS :afraid:

I think its odd whenever I see someone adamantly defending a breeder that clearly has their priorities WRONG...when they themselves have little to no experience or involvement with an actual "show" breeder
So where would they be getting their comparison?...
Keith...you know I love you, but I have to disagree with you to a degree. You and I both know there are loads of show breeders whose soul purpose in breeding is winning. Ribbons and accolades being the motivator. Never a thought that THIS dog has produced THIS disease a number of times...oh well...it's gorgeous and its kids are gorgeous, so we'll deal with it because its offspring win in the ring. I hate to point fingers, but why else would someone resurrect sperm that has been frozen from Eaton Affirmed for eons, to produce Yes. She is without a doubt a gloriously beautiful bitch, but at what cost? And then there was talk she was going to be bred back to her Father's semen????? OMG! With the amount of illness he has produced (and yes I know it is relative because he HAS been bred a gazillion times) and a COI as high as his, I am sorry, I just don't get it. This is not the only time something like this has gone on, and I am not for one second suggesting that all show breeders do things this way, but, there are plenty whose primary concern is winning and producing pups who will also win. at any cost and with no consideration to the future of the breed or the health of the pups produced.
 

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I have to disagree with you to a degree. You and I both know there are loads of show breeders whose soul purpose in breeding is winning. Ribbons and accolades being the motivator. Never a thought that THIS dog has produced THIS disease a number of times...oh well...it's gorgeous and its kids are gorgeous, so we'll deal with it because its offspring win in the ring.

But, there are plenty whose primary concern is winning and producing pups who will also win. at any cost and with no consideration to the future of the breed or the health of the pups produced.
AGREED.

I think every breeder should be judged on their own merits and set up. Yes you should breed to better the breed...definitely. But showing a standard poodle is expensive. It is few breeders that can show their own poodle. The ring is full of handlers who do the job all year, every year. They groom and show the dog expertlyl...it is very hard to compete with this and will probably cost more money in entry fees, travel and grooming than paying for a handler.

A small home-based breeder may not have the monetary ability to gain a CKC or AKC title. (Although many will pipe up that this is an investment.) All classes for Agility, Obedience etc. etc. cost money. I think there are other cost effective ways to ensure that the poodles you are breeding are bettering the breed. Learn proper structure..continually educate yourself on structure, health, nutrition etc. Maintain relationships with other, knowledgeable breeders...to share knowledge and information. Temperment can be proven through Canine Good Neighbour (Citizen). Enjoy your spoos...hike with them...socialise them....Don't have more than you can individually love and care for properly. A life in a kennel is no life...how is this bettering the breed. What is the point of a beautifully structured, health tested dog if it is spending its life caged?

If you get a good feeling from this breeder (and many have) it is ultimately your decision.
 

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I'm here to defend Keith... (here I would like to insert the little smile guy with his sword!)

His statement wasn't incorrect.

I too get quite tired of hearing " show breeders want the accolades and sacrifice the health blah blah" + offer an extreme example.

Yes - there are some - more the exception than the rule.

And, I'd make a heavy bet there are MANY more pet breeders churning out structurally (and in temperment if not in health) substandard poodles for a "dollah" than there are show breeders sacrificing health for the perfect poodle.

Grab a pen and make a list - see which one is longer.

R.E. The Eaton Affirmed/Yessie commentary. It criticizes a show breeder for breeding for a CH yet ignores perhaps the biggest point of the breeding (as related to pets and this discussion of a high volume breeder). Yessie's pups were never[/U] offered to the general public- and especially not to other breeders for breeding.
(I've also not heard of any health issues in the litter - and I would have).

Keith is correct that pet breeders toss out a multitude of arguments in the defense of their failure to give back to the breed that they are using to pay the bills.

You can love the breed - here I believe we all do - but there is no reason to mass produce poodles without proving. "Pet" or "show" breeder - the rule applies.
 
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