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Discussion Starter #1
Labs then


AKC labs now


Now if you see UKC / working labs they look more like the then Labs

Then Golden


AKC golden now


Again Working Goldens look similar to the then dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
GSD then


Most European Show GSD look like this and they call them Western showlines ( now)


Working GSD aka DDR , east german , Czech gsds. ( now)


AKC dog now ( this is one of the top 25 GSD in the country)


UK dogs looked like our dogs but a little better ( I can not find a picture of one) most UK breeder converted to the west german showline strain ......
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Bulldog then


Bulldog now ( another top 25 bis dog in our country )


Here is an example of a working "bulldog" this is a new breed that looks very promising renaissance bulldog ( people are putting sch and psa titles on them)



 

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I'd like to know the reasons for such drastic changes in certain breeds. That lab posted is HUGE and how is that thing going to swim for a duck or even have stamina for a working field dog which is what they are supposed to be used for. The GSD's are just sad. Look at the hind legs on that top winning dog. I mean how does he walk?
 

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There is nothing wrong with the GSD's legs, it's just the way they stack them for show. I've seen goldens at the AKC shows I go to and I have to say they are so good looking, I definitely prefer them the way they look like today.
I think many breeds have actually been improved on, but I know there are also many breeds that really went down hill from what they use to be.
The other thing is with many breeds there are a difference in those that are bred for work versus the ones that are bred for confirmation.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
There is nothing wrong with the GSD's legs, it's just the way they stack them for show. I've seen goldens at the AKC shows I go to and I have to say they are so good looking, I definitely prefer them the way they look like today.
I think many breeds have actually been improved on, but I know there are also many breeds that really went down hill from what they use to be.
The other thing is with many breeds there are a difference in those that are bred for work versus the ones that are bred for confirmation.
IA

I also agree with you on goldens they look better now than then. Some breeds where improved but some are not. The lab is an example of not improvement same goes for the bulldog. Some breeds have been unchanged which is amazing IMO.
 

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Obviously neither of you watched that video that was posted if that's what you believe about the GSD. Even the top winning dogs at CRUFTS can barely stand on their back legs and specialists have come out and said that the way the bones are formed isn't strong enough for them to hold themselves up much less work in the field that they are intended. It's not the way they are stacked because they showed them in movement.

Please explain to me why a dog should be bred for a conformation ring and be different in strutcture and look than a dog that's bred for working which is what the breed is intended for in the first place? Standards are not for beauty, they are supposed to allow the breeder basic knowledge of the breed for structure for the purpose of the original intent of the breed not just for it's beauty. There is no reason a dog shouldn't look the same if it's "working" and if it's in a show ring. That's absolutely ridiculous to think that there should be two separate standards! People change things based on looks and looks alone. What the "trend" is and what looks better. The breeders of ridgebacks in that video were idiots! They were culling puppies without the ridge when the ridge is a genetic deformity! I'll never look at dog showing the same again even though I still intend to do it. I always knew it was political and it was a beauty pagent not just for the dogs but also who was on the end of the lead. To see these dogs that are ending up with painful horrific conditions because someone thinks it's cute or pretty to have a dog with no face or with so much extra skin that they constantly rub against themselves is just the definition of insanity to me.
 

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KPoos, I totally agree with you. I hate whats been done with the GSD and the Ridgeback. Its really sad, the dogs look absolutely miserable to me.
 

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I have to say I too like the now goldens better than the then goldens. I have several really good friends showing their "now" goldens and winning with them in the breed and group rings one month and then taking them and putting them in field trials and putting master hunter titles on them.

The poor GSD.... they walk on their hocks, it looks sad :(
 

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@ Ponki and Roxy

How can you say that there is nothing wrong with that GSD? That is not just stacking, that's a deformity that was bred into the show lines. Have you seen a show GSD's move? It's sad, because it is so far from functional! They would never be able to work because they are so unstable. Most working GSDs look nothing like show GSDs.

I think it's absurd that we have to differentiate between working and conformation in the same breed! They should be bred for functionality and looks, but not just looks. Conformation GSDs are bred solely for the latter.

Most poodles are fortunate enough to be functional and complete the task they were originally bred for, unlike many other breeds which have been changed over the years for looks and looks alone.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
@ Ponki and Roxy

How can you say that there is nothing wrong with that GSD? That is not just stacking, that's a deformity that was bred into the show lines. Have you seen a show GSD's move? It's sad, because it is so far from functional! They would never be able to work because they are so unstable. Most working GSDs look nothing like show GSDs.

I think it's absurd that we have to differentiate between working and conformation in the same breed! They should be bred for functionality and looks, but not just looks. Conformation GSDs are bred solely for the latter.

Most poodles are fortunate enough to be functional and complete the task they were originally bred for, unlike many other breeds which have been changed over the years for looks and looks alone.
umm you guys have misunderstood what me and Ponki are saying ! those dogs are stacked like that . The dogs do not stand like that all day this is what I meant . The akc showdogs dont just stand like that naturally. Yes they have weak back legs but you guys are not understanding what we where saying.

I agree with all of you those dogs are poor examples of a dog , I hate west german show lines and AKC dogs..... I owned a gsd for 10 years and she was from working line she did not stand like that naturally you have to stack them ........ My dog could clear a 8 ft fence with ease , no akc dog or any show gsd can do this at all. Just watching them move is so disgusting. I remember I was invited to my friends ( friends) party he had a 7 yr GSD it was from akc ch lines this dog looked a hot mess for onlt being 7 years. He walked on his cocks. His back legs where so weak . In my head i was like I hope they did not get this dog for protection. with those legs it can run at all.

example this gsd is not stacked


another dog not stacked this dog is barely stacked you can see they would look like an Italian greyhound standing natural with the roach back.




another not stacked dog.....



I am a working person more than show and I still do not get why people are breeding the dogs the way they are today. Some of these breed clubs are going to have to start mixing to fix certain breeds. Example bulldog the bulldog is so screwed up I don't think they can breed away from it anymre. they would probably have to mix a staffy bull in to fix most of the problems.

I laugh every time the dog show commentator says this is not a beauty pageant when it really is. A lot of these breeders are only showing and not doing anything else with the breed.

Another thing I hate about the show world is this prejudice against colors. Some dogs come in a lot of colors but show people have bred it out. Ex beagles are allowed to come in any true hound color but you only see tri color 99% of the time.

if you don't understand what i meant ( page 1) then just disregard what i said lol
 

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Obviously neither of you watched that video that was posted if that's what you believe about the GSD. Even the top winning dogs at CRUFTS can barely stand on their back legs and specialists have come out and said that the way the bones are formed isn't strong enough for them to hold themselves up much less work in the field that they are intended. It's not the way they are stacked because they showed them in movement.

Please explain to me why a dog should be bred for a conformation ring and be different in strutcture and look than a dog that's bred for working which is what the breed is intended for in the first place? Standards are not for beauty, they are supposed to allow the breeder basic knowledge of the breed for structure for the purpose of the original intent of the breed not just for it's beauty. There is no reason a dog shouldn't look the same if it's "working" and if it's in a show ring. That's absolutely ridiculous to think that there should be two separate standards! People change things based on looks and looks alone. What the "trend" is and what looks better. The breeders of ridgebacks in that video were idiots! They were culling puppies without the ridge when the ridge is a genetic deformity! I'll never look at dog showing the same again even though I still intend to do it. I always knew it was political and it was a beauty pagent not just for the dogs but also who was on the end of the lead. To see these dogs that are ending up with painful horrific conditions because someone thinks it's cute or pretty to have a dog with no face or with so much extra skin that they constantly rub against themselves is just the definition of insanity to me.
:rockon: I couldn't agree more!

I also commend you for not giving up on showing. It's really sad to hear people giving up on conformation b/c it's "too political" or they don't agree w/ the popular interpretation of the standard. If people who care about working ability and showing the best dogs leave, then the people who created the freakish looking Labs and GSDs will be in control. Who wants that?
 

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umm you guys have misunderstood what me and Ponki are saying ! those dogs are stacked like that . The dogs do not stand like that all day this is what I meant . The akc showdogs dont just stand like that naturally. Yes they have weak back legs but you guys are not understanding what we where saying.

I agree with all of you those dogs are poor examples of a dog , I hate west german show lines and AKC dogs..... I owned a gsd for 10 years and she was from working line she did not stand like that naturally you have to stack them ........ My dog could clear a 8 ft fence with ease , no akc dog or any show gsd can do this at all. Just watching them move is so disgusting. I remember I was invited to my friends ( friends) party he had a 7 yr GSD it was from akc ch lines this dog looked a hot mess for onlt being 7 years. He walked on his cocks. His back legs where so weak . In my head i was like I hope they did not get this dog for protection. with those legs it can run at all.

example this gsd is not stacked


another dog not stacked this dog is barely stacked you can see they would look like an Italian greyhound standing natural with the roach back.




another not stacked dog.....


I am a working person more than show and I still do not get why people are breeding the dogs the way they are today. Some of these breed clubs are going to have to start mixing to fix certain breeds. Example bulldog the bulldog is so screwed up I don't think they can breed away from it anymre. they would probably have to mix a staffy bull in to fix most of the problems.

I laugh every time the dog show commentator says this is not a beauty pageant when it really is. A lot of these breeders are only showing and not doing anything else with the breed.

Another thing I hate about the show world is this prejudice against colors. Some dogs come in a lot of colors but show people have bred it out. Ex beagles are allowed to come in any true hound color but you only see tri color 99% of the time.

if you don't understand what i meant ( page 1) then just disregard what i said lol
I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you and Ponki were trying to get at, and for that I apologize, but I don't think it is just the way they are stacked. For some dogs, yes it may be that they are stacked, but a lot of the AKC show lines have deep angulation and the German show lines are just roached back with splayed feet. Neither are very functional IMO.

This website here shows the progression of the GSD, and the 1940's dogs look so stable stacked compared to the later ones which are obviously roached, stacked or not.

This dog is stacked, with a roach back. The stack contributes to the roach back, but stack or not he would still be roached.



Not stacked, without a roach back. This is what GSD's should look like IMHO.



Other then the stacking, I can agree with nearly everything else you have said. I don't understand why we continue to breed dogs the way we do today, especially when the problems are so known and obvious. Like Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, Bulldogs, Pugs, Shar Peis, etc. It's very sad, because these dogs are suffering.

The conformation show ring has it's faults, and I think a serious reform is needed in ALL kennel clubs. They need to use a little more common sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
This dog is stacked, with a roach back. The stack contributes to the roach back, but stack or not he would still be roached.

Yes I understand this, I was not saying the roach back is created because it was stacked. The dog will still have a roach back regardless. I was focusing on other peoples comments. From my understanding people where saying their legs are messed up based on stacked pictures....

I seen all of the gsd's from then to now. GSD used to be my breed. I got out of them because of how the AKC dogs looked. When I was younger I thought there where no real GSD left since I did not see any.

I started to see working GSD and these are the only ones I would buy, Sadly the working GSD are not suitable for the average person or family so its rare to see them.
 
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