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Discussion Starter #1
I need help with something.

Are phantoms and partis healthy dogs or are they considered more prone to health disorders? I have noticed that a few of my preferred breeders have introduced phantoms to their lines. I plan on purchasing a puppy early next year and the intention is to raise it as service dog prospect so I need a dog with as optimal temperament and health as possible.

When looking at phantoms and partis what should I be checking for exactly, outside of the normal health requirements? Does the dog being a phantom or parti affect it genetically and health wise or is it strictly related to the coat colors and whether the dog can be shown?
 

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There are no health concerns with partis,phantoms, or brindles. Only Merle which isn’t a poodle color or a pure poodle.

With more breeders doing dna color testing it’s easier to get one. You just need a dog that has a ky/ky . Sandy my cream dog carried KB/ky aw/at (agouti and phantom) so there was a possibility if I had bred her to another dog with the same dog genticly (that wasn’t red/ cream )she could have had agouti or phantom pups. Her breeder was shocked because she said we only breed for cream/reds and that all they produced and thought they could only produce red/creams or blacks.
 

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The concern is finding a good breeder who is doing all the recommended health checks and looks for diversity in the parents as well as carefully choosing the right pair to mate so you have good conformation. In addition they should be raising the puppies under good conditions for the mother and puppies.

Since phantom and partis are trendy you are more likely dealing with greedy breeders and puppy mills looking for a quick buck. Buying a puppy from people like this is more risky as your puppy may have poor conformation leading to health issues, or inherited diseases that could be avoided. The mother may have been pregnant under poor circumstances such as kept in a crate and the puppy may not have had proper socialization etc. Some dogs with a poor start in life can overcome this and be a great pet while others will have on going issues. Of course not every dog from the best breeder is perfect, but you have a better chance with a properly bred and raised puppy.

AKC doesn’t recognize them but UKC does so try to find someone showing in UKC or who is participating in dog sports as they are more likely to be breeding with care.

I have read that the different colors of the fur can have different textures and supposedly this is why they weren’t allowed for conformation by the Poodle Club of America which is what AKC uses for the requirements in showing. I don’t have a parti or phantom so I have no personal experience.
 
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The reason why they haven’t changed their views on parti’s and phantoms is all because they are traditionalist that cant stand change. Parti’s were originally the poodle when people thought poodle . It’s just like with the Morgan horse. At some point someone decided morgans should all be solid with very little white (sounds familiar) . Figure was bred to all color of mares and types. So all the foals that were born with high amounts of white were culled. It wasn’t until 1996 that has changed when people who were in charge changed. We almost lost greys (there was only 3 left) , almost lost overo ( there was 1 reg. mare left) and we did loose roans (except for one new dna mutation in a foal 2yrs ago). Fortunately splash, Sabino,creme genes, all hide and so they have recovered just like the parti and phantoms.

There are can be some differences the white and dark hair but that isn’t the reason. The wrong people are in charge.


I agree do the standard health checks. Look at conformation. If you see that the breeder has unfixed merle poodles at all run the other direction because they don’t have the breeds best interest in heart.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
There are no health concerns with partis,phantoms, or brindles. Only Merle which isn’t a poodle color or a pure poodle.

With more breeders doing dna color testing it’s easier to get one. You just need a dog that has a ky/ky . Sandy my cream dog carried KB/ky aw/at (agouti and phantom) so there was a possibility if I had bred her to another dog with the same dog genticly (that wasn’t red/ cream )she could have had agouti or phantom pups. Her breeder was shocked because she said we only breed for cream/reds and that all they produced and thought they could only produce red/creams or blacks.
Oh it's merle! Okay there was a color combo that I had to be weary of, thank you so much!
 

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The concern is finding a good breeder who is doing all the recommended health checks and looks for diversity in the parents as well as carefully choosing the right pair to mate so you have good conformation. In addition they should be raising the puppies under good conditions for the mother and puppies.

Since phantom and partis are trendy you are more likely dealing with greedy breeders and puppy mills looking for a quick buck. Buying a puppy from people like this is more risky as your puppy may have poor conformation leading to health issues, or inherited diseases that could be avoided. The mother may have been pregnant under poor circumstances such as kept in a crate and the puppy may not have had proper socialization etc. Some dogs with a poor start in life can overcome this and be a great pet while others will have on going issues. Of course not every dog from the best breeder is perfect, but you have a better chance with a properly bred and raised puppy.

AKC doesn’t recognize them but UKC does so try to find someone showing in UKC or who is participating in dog sports as they are more likely to be breeding with care.

I have read that the different colors of the fur can have different textures and supposedly this is why they weren’t allowed for conformation by the Poodle Club of America which is what AKC uses for the requirements in showing. I don’t have a parti or phantom so I have no personal experience.
Thank you! I had gotten merles and phantoms/partis confused, I knew I had to be aware of one of them.

The breeeders I am looking at came with high recommendations from this board so i think I will be safe there. I just needed to know in case the appropriate puppy for me happens to be a phantom or parti. Thank you so much
 

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The reason why they haven’t changed their views on parti’s and phantoms is all because they are traditionalist that cant stand change. Parti’s were originally the poodle when people thought poodle . It’s just like with the Morgan horse. At some point someone decided morgans should all be solid with very little white (sounds familiar) . Figure was bred to all color of mares and types. So all the foals that were born with high amounts of white were culled. It wasn’t until 1996 that has changed when people who were in charge changed. We almost lost greys (there was only 3 left) , almost lost overo ( there was 1 reg. mare left) and we did loose roans (except for one new dna mutation in a foal 2yrs ago). Fortunately splash, Sabino,creme genes, all hide and so they have recovered just like the parti and phantoms.

There are can be some differences the white and dark hair but that isn’t the reason. The wrong people are in charge.


I agree do the standard health checks. Look at conformation. If you see that the breeder has unfixed merle poodles at all run the other direction because they don’t have the breeds best interest in heart.
That is so cool, I have never read about poodles starting out as multicolor! Thank you, I will keep my eyes open for merles.
 

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Generally speaking, if certain colors or patterns are disallowed in a standard it is because there is some reason for it. The people who could best speak about this for poodles are no longer living, so I cannot ask them why solid colors are preferred. I can tell you that the poodle standards for the UK, Canada, Australia, and Europe (FCI). Here are quotes from those standards:

UK: Non solid colours are highly undesirable and should be heavily penalised.
Canada: Any solid color. ... Particoloured Poodles shall be disqualified.
Australia: All solid colours. ... Clear colours preferred.
FCI (Europe): Solid colour: black, white, brown, grey, fawn.
 
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